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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 3:39:15 GMT -5
Brown Bear by Melissa Gish.
Brown bears have a powerful bite force. Even a great white shark's bite, at 690 pounds of pressure per square inch ( 48.5 kg/cm ), or psi, is no match for a brown bear's bite at 1,200 psi ( 84.4 kg/cm ).
The bones in the legs and paws are thick, and each paw has five digits ending in sharp claws that can be up to six inches long. The force that a bear can excert with its front paws is enormous. One swipe can behead a moose or crush its spine.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 3:41:38 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/ First posted by Grrraaahhh.... The following interesting extract account I found awhile ago but I have not been able to find out anything more about the original source information. Maybe someone in the visiting audience is familiar with the following material: The claim that an adult grizzly bear can decapitate a moose with one swipe of its paw is an established fact. The first reported event took place in Alaska in 1895 by a Russian miner who was hiking through the wilderness. According to his account, he witnessed a moose drinking from a stream when a Grizzly bear approached from the other side. Mooses are very territorial, and they are especially known to attack anything they perceive to be a threat to their water source. The moose charged full speed across the stream, and just as it neared the bear, the bear stood up and with a quick motion swiped the moose in the side of the face. The mooses head became decapitated and flew a distance of fifteen to twenty feet. ...and quick as a spark on a fire the grizzly bear stood up and swatted the moose in the face. Why it was if you or I would swat a fly, but the impact seemed to me as loud as a gunshot. And then I was absolutely flabbergasted and discombobulated to see, a great upsplash of blood, and the mooses head detatched from the body and landed not three feet from where I was hidden, its eyes staring right at me. The bear sat down immediately and began drinking from the stream as if nothing had happened, as if it were a regular occurance to go decapitating the head of a moose. Never in my life will I forget the power of the grizzly bear... The report was met by skepticism until noted American biologist Dr. Jacob MacDonaldson observed a similar event in the spring of 1954. MacDonaldson was observing the movements of a Grizzly bear when a moose walked into the same space. The grizzly bear perceived the moose to be a threat to the cubs, and roared to scare it off. But the moose began to graze. The bear then charged the moose, but again the moose did not move. The bear then lumbered over to the moose, and with a powerful swipe of its paw, decapitated the moose. Dr. MacDonaldson later retreived the moose head an autopsy found damage consistent with that of decapitation by impact. Later studies contribute the phenomenon to both the relative weakness of a mooses upper neck and the power of a grizzly bears arm. Although a grizzly bear is very powerful, it does not have the strength to decapitate most creatures larger than a man. A moose however is peculiar in the structure of its upperneck, which is weak, and any force that puts a significant and sudden pressure on the weakest point of the neck will inevitably cause decapitation. Since 1895, there have been 15 reported cases of Moose decapitation by Grizzly, and most scientists theorize it is a natural, albeit somewhat rare, event. P.S. May the Force Be With You.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 3:42:30 GMT -5
Nature's Deadliest, The Grizzly Bear by Lisa Owings.
A grizzly bear's bite is strong enough to crush a bowling ball. A grizzly bear's claws can grow up to 4 inches ( 10 cm ) long. That's almost as long as a human finger.
*Note: I own three grizzly claws. The longest of them is about 5 inches long, but one slightly shorter is thicker in size.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 3:43:13 GMT -5
First posted by Grraahh - shaggygod.proboards.com/Text extract from Naturalist Terry Domico: "The brown bear is stout and rather chunky in shape, with a large hump of fat and muscle over the shoulders and very long claws. It has a wide, massive head that some people describe as being somewhat "dish faced" in appearance. That big head is equipped with extremely powerful jaws. I once saw a big male, trapped in a leg snare set by researchers, take out its frustration on some neighboring trees. In one bite he bit completely through a 4-inch (10-cm) -diameter pine, snapping it off. It also chewed through several 6- and 8-inch (15- and 20-cm) -diameter trees. One stump looked as though it had been dynamited. When we slammed the sharp end of a geologist's pick into the trunk of one of those trees, it only penetrated about 1.5 inches (3.8 cm) into the wood." Domico, T. and M. Newman. 1988. Bears of the world. Facts on File.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 3:43:44 GMT -5
The Grizzly by Enos A. Mills.
The largest grizzly-track that I have measured was slightly more than thirteen inches long, and seven and one half inches wide at the widest point. These measurements did not include the clawmarks.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:24:28 GMT -5
The Grizzly Almanac by Robert H. Busch.
Males will also fight with other males over females, and many old male grizzlies have deep scars on their muzzles from such encounters. When challenging another male, grizzlies often use what has been termed a "cowboy walk," in which they walk on stiff bowlegs toward each other with lowered head and angry intentions. The posing often deters a fight before it begins, but when an actual tussle occurs, serious injuries can occur. Occasionally, the fights are fatal. The autopsy of one such unfortunate bear, who obviously lost in his fight, revealed 89 puncture wounds, a wide hole in the chest, broken ribs, a broken shoulder, a broken nose, a dislocated neck, and a broken skull. Those males who survive such battles pass on their genes to the next generation.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:25:53 GMT -5
The Bear Almanac by Gary Brown.
In an attack, bears charge on all four legs, some in great, leaping bounds. They do not stand bipedal in an attack, unless in a final, close-quarters "reaching" action. They do not "bear hug" but strike, claw, and bite. The most effective method of attack is with a crushing blow of a forepaw; they have incredible forepaw speed; a single strike is so powerful that it can kill an adult elk, caribou, or moose. The bear "... strikes around with its paws," according to Frederick Drimmer in 'The Animal Kingdom. "The terrific strength of its weighty arms drives the claws deep into the body of its victims." "When hunting large game, bears may stalk catlike, then run the prey down with a sudden spurt and kill it with blows of the forepaws and bites through the neck," describes Paul Shepard and Barry Sanders in 'The sacred Paw'. Scientists, victims, and other observers describe various actions of the species: Brown bear: uses speed to run down prey; charges in great bounds ( while uttering a deep roar ); rears up in fight to grasp head or neck with teeth; swings powerful forepaws, with enormous body strength behind them.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:26:40 GMT -5
Man Meets Grizzly by Young and Beyers. Most competent writers on the grizzly agree that he is seldom the aggressor, but when wounded, closely pressed, or surprised, he becomes a juggernaut, springing to kill with all his power. There are various views on just how the grizzly attacks his foe. Some say the bear strikes for the face or head and bites the foe in these areas. Others state that the bear will hold the victim with one arm, while clawing and striking with the other and biting at the same time. W.H. Wright says he never saw a grizzly attack in an upright position or open his mouth as he charged. There may be exceptions to this, as in the instance of Old Ephraim. The standing bear probably assumes that position in order to better investigate a situation. There are reports of bears hugging and biting, or striking at the side of the head and biting when they can get a hold. There are enough stories of unfortunate men whose faces have been disfigured in this manner to support the idea that the head is a favorite target for the bear. Yet I was much bothered on this point because of the conflicting opinions held by those who should know, until a young naturalist at Yellowstone Park, Lowell Biddulph, enlightened me. While he was on an observation trip in early spring, when there was still considerable snow on the ground, he used as headquarters a cabin near Dunraven Pass; it was built on a hillside with a window on the downhill side. He was in the custom of throwing table scraps out of the window. On an evening of full moonlight, when he could see clearly, a large grizzly bear came to eat the food. It was soon joined by another large grizzly. They began to quarrel over the food. Both rose on their hind legs and struck each other on the head, bit at the face and neck, and threw arms around each other and hugged and bit at each other's throat.
This account convinces me that a grizzly bear will use whatever means he can employ to best his antagonist and will, upon occasion, hug. To do this he stands. The strength of the bear's arms makes a very effective vise. Some of the most serious wounds hunters receive were made by a bear reaching up with his hind foot and tearing clothes and flesh from the victim, who was held by the bear's forearms. A curious thing about wounds inflicted by bears, which Hornaday and others have noted, is that bear bites and scratches almost never produce blood poisoning. Inquiry among hunters and park rangers, as well as doctors, supports this statement. This is strange, for the same kinds of wounds from wolves or lions frequently result in blood poisoning; it is all the more remarkable because bears like to scavenge garbage and stale meat, carrion even, and they dig and scratch in the dirt.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:27:21 GMT -5
Here is yet another account of a grizzly administering a "bear hug" ... from Man Meets Grizzly by Young and Beyers. The next moment a growl, so deep and fierce that it echoed through the cave, startled me to my feet; and I turned to find myself closely confronted by an enormous grizzly bear, the most fearful animal of the American wilds. How ferociously his eyes glared on me from under his shaggy brows, as he opened them from the new-fallen sleep, which the warm beams of my fire had dispelled, and how convulsively his huge jaws worked and quivered in eager longing to devour me! Ere I had time to snatch the revolver from my belt the gigantic beast rose toweringly above me, and opening his enormous paws, pressed me to him in close embrace - so close that my arms were pinned to my sides, and my very bones seemed to crack in that viselike hug. I believe I screamed with the sudden agony, but the sound was lost in the deep-mouthed growls, like muttering thunder, that filled the cave.
Weak and exhausted as I was, I felt myself unequal to cope with the powerful beast in whose grasp I was; but even if life were of little worth, to a solitary such as I, this mode of death was so horrible, that it nerved me to efforts beyond my ordinary strength, and somehow my hand managed to creep up towards my belt. But ere I could reach the weapon I sought, a movement of the bear had loosened it, and firing a single barrel, it fell to the ground among our feet. The report echoing through the cave alarmed my adversary; and with a more threatening growl, he clasped me closer, and for the first time his claws penetrated my clothes, inflicting terrible wounds.
But my hand had met an unexpected friend in my knife, which I had unwittingly thrust into my belt, and with it I inflicted several random stabs on my antagonist. This, however, seemed only to add to my own suffering; for, maddened by the pain, the bear threw himself upon the ground and rolled over me in his agony, while his huge teeth munched and tore at the blanket which a fortunate fit of toothache had made me wrap round my head. Not that, nor any other earthly matter seemed likely to concern me long, for the strength of excitement was already passing, a srange murmur was mingling in my ears with the fierce growls of my enemy; and the pain of his claws changed into a vague yet universal agony as unconsciousness and life were being pressed out in the terrible hug.
Suddenly a sound echoed through the cave, so sharp that it reached even my failing faculties, and appeared to thrill likewise on the nerves of my foe, to judge by the increased emphasis of his embrace; but the next instant he relaxed his hold, and sank helpless on the ground beside me, his almost insensible victim.
My first sensation as I revived were of burning pains all over my body, and exceeding cold in my hands and face; I opened my eyes to find a young Indian bending over me, and rubbing me with snow.
Passing near the cave, he had seen my fire, and heard the report of my revolver and had hastened to see what was the matter, just in time to save me from a miserable death and a revolting sepulcher.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:28:12 GMT -5
The Grizzly by Enos A. Mills.
The grizzly is exceptionally expert and agile with his paws. With either fore paw he can strike like a sledge-hammer or lift a heavy weight. He boxes or strikes with lightning-like rapidity. Most grizzlies are right-handed; that is, the right fore paw is most used. If a small object is to be touched or moved, he will daintily use but one claw. The black bear would use the entire paw.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:28:56 GMT -5
BEARS of the last frontier... Suddenly, the action turned from slow motion to quick draw: in an explosion of power and testosterone the clash of the titans thundered before us. One of the males swung such a forceful left hook that all four paws left the ground for a second. Definitely no small feat for a thousand-pound lover. Teeth, claws, saliva, muscle, and flying fur - it was like a small bomb went off in the middle of the wilderness. The female frantically circled the battling males just three feet away like a tiny referee, scoring the fight, psyched at the idea of leaving with the winner. Wads of fur flew, backlit by the evening sun, and then, just ten seconds after the first punch was landed, it was over. It was as much as either of them could take. The behemoths seperated, exhausted and breathing heavily, standing on all fours just ten feet apart, heads held low. Slowly, the new comer turned to walk away without pausing for a moment to look over his shoulder. He was the new champ. In the bear world, only the winner has the confidence to do this; it is a key piece of body language. The famale fell in behind him and left the scene with her new male.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:29:41 GMT -5
The Bear Almanac by Gary Brown.
In an attack, bears charge on all four legs, some in great, leaping bounds. They do not stand bipedal in an attack, unless in a final, close-quarters "reaching" action. They do not "bear hug" but strike, claw, and bite. The most effective method of attack is with a crushing blow of a forepaw; they have incredible forepaw speed; a single strike is so powerful that it can kill an adult elk, caribou, or moose. The bear "... strikes around with its paws," according to Frederick Drimmer in 'The Animal Kingdom. "The terrific strength of its weighty arms drives the claws deep into the body of its victims." "When hunting large game, bears may stalk catlike, then run the prey down with a sudden spurt and kill it with blows of the forepaws and bites through the neck," describes Paul Shepard and Barry Sanders in 'The sacred Paw'. Scientists, victims, and other observers describe various actions of the species: Brown bear: uses speed to run down prey; charges in great bounds ( while uttering a deep roar ); rears up in fight to grasp head or neck with teeth; swings powerful forepaws, with enormous body strength behind them.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:30:08 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/11...rful-force The bear paw is capable of delivering a powerful force, resulting in significant blunt trauma, particularly to the head and neck, ribcage, and abdominal cavity, especially solid organ rupture. Therefore victims of bear attacks should be evaluated for occult blunt trauma.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:31:11 GMT -5
MAN MEETS GRIZZLY - Gathered by F.M.Young - 1980. Most competent writers on the grizzly agree that he is seldom the aggressor, but when wounded, closely pressed, or surprised, he becomes a juggernaut, springing to kill with all his power. There are various views on just how the grizzly attacks his foe. Some say the bear strikes for the face or head and bites the foe in these areas. Others state that the bear will hold the victim with one arm, while clawing and striking with the other and biting at the same time. W.H.Wright says he never saw a grizzly attack in an upright position or open his mouth as he charged. There may be exceptions to this, as in the instance of Old Ephraim. The standing bear probably assumes that position in order to better investigate a situation. There are reports of bears hugging and biting, or striking at the side of the head and biting when they can get a hold. There are enough stories of unfortunate men whose faces have been disfigured in this manner to support the idea that the head is a favorite target for the bear. Yet I was much bothered on this point because of the conflicting opinions held by those who should know, until a young naturalist at Yellowstone Park, Lowell Biddulph, enlightened me....
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:31:43 GMT -5
Continued.... While he was on an observation trip in early spring, when there was still considerable snow on the ground. On an evening of full moonlight, when he could see clearly, a large grizzly bear came to eat the food. It was soon joined by another large grizzly. They began to quarrel over the food. Both rose on their hind legs and struck each other on the head, bit at the face and neck, and threw arms around each other and hugged and bit at each other's throat. This account convinces me that a grizzly bear will use whatever means he can employ to best his antagonist and will, upon occasion, hug. To do this he stands. The strength of the bear's arms makes a very effective vise. Some of the most serious wounds hunters have received were made by a bear reaching up with his hind foot and tearing clothes and flesh from the victim, who was held by the bear's forearms.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 4:33:21 GMT -5
Continued.... A curious thing about wounds inflicted by bears, which Hornaday and others have noted, is that bear bites and scratches almost never produce blood poisoning. Inquiry among hunters and park rangers, as well as doctors, supports this statement. This is strange, for the same kinds of wounds from wolves or lions frequently result in blood poisoning; it is all the more remarkable because bears like to scavenge garbage and stale meat, carrion even, and they dig and scratch in the dirt.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:18:58 GMT -5
Some basic information : shaggygod.proboards.com/BEAR ATTACKS (Copyright © 2001 by Steven P. French, M.D.) The following is the text for the 43rd chapter in the Fourth Edition of Wilderness Medicine, edited by Paul S. Auerbach, published by Mosby in 2001 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Auerbach BEAR-INDUCED INJURIES Bear-inflicted injuries range from minor, treated on an outpatient basis, to complex, requiring hospitalization and surgery, typically resulting in significant cosmetic and functional disability. In this regard, bear attacks are similar to most other animal attacks, particularly those inflicted by large animals. The character of such injuries is determined in part by the three main sources: teeth, claws, and paws. The teeth of bears, especially the canines, are large and sturdy. Although the teeth are not particularly sharp, the power of the jaw muscles allows the teeth to penetrate deep into soft tissues and to fracture facial bones and bones of the hand and forearm with ease. The trauma characteristically results from punctures, with shearing, tearing, and crushing forces (Figure 43-20). The claws are another important source of trauma. Although the claws on the front pads can be as long as human fingers, they are not particularly sharp on grizzlies and polar bears. The bear’s shoulders, however, provide the force and speed that allows claws to cause significant soft tissue damage in a scraping maneuver that results in deep, parallel gashes. Because black bear claws are sharper and more curved, the cuts tend to have sharper, less ragged edges. The bear paw is capable of delivering a powerful force, resulting in significant blunt trauma, particularly to the head and neck, ribcage, and abdominal cavity, especially solid organ rupture. Therefore victims of bear attacks should be evaluated for occult blunt trauma. ORIGINAL PAPER Large carnivore attacks on hominins during the Pleistocene:a forensic approach with a Neanderthal example Edgard Camarós
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:22:38 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/ Mediolateral forces were significantly higher than would be expected for a large erect mammal, almost to the extent of a sprawling crocodilian. There may be morphological or energetic explanations for the use of the running walk rather than the trot. The high medial forces (produced from a lateral push by the animal) could be caused by frontal plane movement of the carpus and elbow by bears. Overall, while grizzly bears share some similarities with large cursorial species, their locomotor kinetics have unique characteristics. Additional studies are needed to determine whether these characters are a feature of all bears or plantigrade species. VGRF = vertical ground reaction force. *Brown bears share some similarities with large cursorial species, their locomotor kinetics have unique characteristics. *Vertical ground reaction forces is significantly more pronounced in the hindlimb,however,VGRF in forelim is still relatively high. "The high medial forces (produced from a lateral push by the animal) could be caused by frontal plane movement of the carpus and elbow by bears" It forced me to focused on the carpus of brown bears. Sylvie McKenzie said she was driving along a highway a few kilometres west of Jasper when she noticed two bears running along the road ahead.She said she slowed down to let the bears cross the road, but only the female bear did so. The second bear – a male – simply stopped and stared at her. McKenzie said she then started driving, putting her car between the two bears. Sylvie McKenzie Asked whether she has any advice for drivers caught in the same situation in the future, McKenzie had simple advice: 'Stop, turn around, wait for a few minutes and go back.' (CBC) "The male didn't like it at all, so he decided to take his feet, charge and hit my car with his two front paws," she said. "[He] just came and pounced on my car with full force and full speed." McKenzie said the car rocked violently when the bear hit it, giving her a close-up view of the bear’s face. "I could see his teeth, the drool on his face. I tried to speed up and put my foot on the gas pedal to get away as fast as I could." Later, she found grizzly prints all over the side of her car, along with two big dents and several scratches. It seem that carpal bone have a high resistance to mechanical deformation. Grizzly bear front paws are surprisingly heavy,maybe due to massive carpal bones? This is the most accurate description of the striking ability IMHO: "...The attack of a Bear is usually sudden and rapid, and he either tries to deal his opponent a blow with a forepaw by executing a rapid and violent movement to the side ,or he quickly trots up to his enemy ,suddenly lift himself on his hind-legs in the immediate proximity of his foe whom he tries to knock down with a violent stroke of the front-paw,or else he deals him a sound blow and gives him a quick bite..."
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:25:56 GMT -5
carnivoraforum.com/index/ by Ursus Arctos. When wrestling with the forelimbs it is probably a very important factor. Alternatively, if an animal's jaws are well adapted to wrestling it can probably wrestle well despite limited flexibility-even if lightly built, thanks to efficient strength. I would guess that (as people like Gun claimed) heavily built canids like pitbulls can wrestle extremely well. It may depend. When fighting with forelimbs however perhaps flexibility (maintenance of strength over a greater range of motion) is more important (but naturally only up to a certain point). Considering the benefits of reduced flexibility to terrestrial locomotion, it seems unlikely that terrestrial animals would be beyond it. For any given muscle mass there must be an optimal point between the trade off of flexibility and strength as they each struggle to get into a position to bite without getting bitten back. One explanation for the number of species that rear up when fighting is related to the limited range of optimal strength (lack of flexibility) of the forelimbs: Nonetheless, bipedal posture may also bestow specific advantages for fighting with the forelimbs that emerge from the mechanics of quadrupedal locomotion and the contractile physiology of striated muscle. Terrestrial vertebrates have evolved to do work against gravity during locomotion. This requires that the mobility and strength of limbs be oriented towards the substrate. Bipedal posture reorients the trunk from pronograde to orthograde, allowing quadrupeds to defend themselves and strike and manipulate an opponent with their forelimbs over the locomotor range of motion; the range of motion that can presumably produce the most force and power. Consider a galloping thoroughbred horse. At full speed, each forelimb is in contact with the ground for much less than a tenth of a second and, during that brief period, it applies a peak ground force of more than 2.5 times body weight [3]. Thus, bipedal posture repositions the axis of the body so that the locomotor range of motion of the forelimbs can be directed at an opponent, allowing quadrupeds to strike, grapple and defend themselves with their forelimbs' greatest capacity to do work. From The Advantage of Standing Up to Fight and the Evolution of Habitual Bipedalism in Hominins.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:26:49 GMT -5
Continued.... The importance of in-lever moment arms to strength has been vastly overrated. If muscle mass and flexibility are held constant, fiber length is forced to increase in proportion with the moment arm. The resulting decrease in cross section area (and thus force) means that there is then no change in force. See: "Muscle Insertions do not incur mechanical advantage" by Carl Gans AND "Muscle Architecture in Relation to Function" by Carl Gans and Abbot Gaunt
Of course-as flexibility does differ tremendously between mammalian species, we can't actually assume that it is constant. Thus, we could speculate that longer in lever arms do represent a decrease in flexibility and thus an increase in strength/force production. However, consider: Canids, Felids, and Ursids as a generalization, in lever arm size may be ordered ursids > felids > canids Flexibility of the limbs, however, is also ordered: Ursids > felids > canids Suggesting that the muscle length/in lever arm length ratios are: Ursids > felids > canids And thus, torque around joints relative to muscle mass are: Canids > felids > ursids
The opposite relation we expect from looking at in lever moment arms only.
Consider the deltopectoral crest of U. arctos compared with P. leo. Info we have: 1) That of U. arctos is ~17% longer. 2) U. arctos has a shoulder joint providing for a greater range of movement-particularly greater abduction. 3) Normal gait of U. arctos involves the humerus being more abducted.
The pectoral muscles (among the largest muscles inserting on the deltopectoral crest) adducts the humerus (the opposite movement of abduction). Considering "2)" and "3)" the pectoral of the bear must be able to produce strength over a wider range of movements (have a higher fiber length/moment arm ratio). Therefore, the longer moment arm of U. arctos is entirely misleading-it is probably P. leo that has the greater strength in adducting the humerus relative to pectoral muscle mass thanks to the lower fiber length/moment arm ratio. As Reddhole said before, using only a part of the picture can be very misleading, and I see that now (having used only the moment arm for ages)!
Out-lever arm (limb length) may be of fundamental importance. Looking back at the study comparing greyhounds and pitbulls, it is apparent that this was one of the largest differences (other than bone strength) between the two species.
2) Speed. Holding everything else constant, fibers will contract with similar speed with units of %length/time. This means that absolute speed of muscle contraction is proportional to absolute fiber length.
High fiber length/moment arm length gives greater speed (theoretically).
Lower fiber length/moment arm length gives greater torque/muscle mass around the joint, and thus greater force/muscle mass at the end of the outlever arm. Force/mass = acceleration; torque/moment of inertia= angular acceleration.
It is apparent that both the fastest and most cursorial animals have some of the lowest fiber length/moment arm, suggesting high acceleration is more important to both efficient running and reaching high speeds. -Note, however, that these animals tend to have longer limbs/mass, thus we should ideally factor in limb bone lengths as well. Different out lever arm lengths mean that torques/mass may not let us adequately predict force/muscle mass generated at the end of the limb.
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