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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 4:06:06 GMT -5
Deep inside the bowels of a dark cave in central Europe, a noise rouses a fierce creature.
Sleeping on its bed, a giant cave bear opens one eye, alert to any intruder.
It stands, lifting its massive 400kg frame and bares its teeth.
In front of it is an equally sized cave lion; a giant predatory cat, and the cave bear's mortal enemy.
Only one will survive, while the bones of the fallen will litter the cave floor for millennia.
New evidence reveals how such titanic struggles likely took place in caves across central Europe in the Upper Pleistocene epoch, which ended around 11,500 years ago.
While excavating caves in Germany and Romania, scientists have unearthed the bones of large numbers of cave bears, a now extinct species that stood bigger than today's grizzly bears.
The bears' bones, claw marks they left in the caves in which they lived, and even the beds they slept on, paint the best picture yet of how these magnificent creatures once lived.
But more than that, researchers have also uncovered the petrified bones of the cave bear's foe, the Pleistocene cave lion.
More than 25% bigger than today's African lions, the cave lion was itself an impressive predator, one that may have specialised in hunting cave bears for food.
Details of the two massive animals' remarkable battles have been released by palaeontologist Dr Cajus Diedrich of PaleoLogic, based in Halle, Germany.
"We have found spectacular things," he told BBC News. "Cave bear dens with skeleton remains, which [show] cave bears clearly were eaten by large predators."
Paws and claws
In the journal Ichnos, he describes the results of a new survey of a cave bear den in a cave in the Western Carpathian mountains of Romania, in central Europe.
During extensive surveys inside, Dr Diedrich has discovered tens of thousands of bones belonging to several generations of cave bears, from young cubs to old animals.
Lions and hyenas ate the intestines and inner organs first”
Palaeontologist Dr Cajus Diedrich The location of the bones reveals that the bears likely only entered the cave through the main opening and inhabited its drier areas.
He has also found several hundred tracks made by cave bears walking through the caverns, scratch marks on the walls made by bears and even hibernation nests the bears dug out to sleep on.
Well preserved foot prints are rare, and they can help establish the behaviour of the cave bears compared to modern brown bears or black bears.
For example, cave bears made much larger prints than those of its later relatives, and had short broad claws.
That suggests cave bears had dull digging claws like black bears, and were herbivorous. In contrast, brown bears are omnivorous and have sharp pointed claws useful for catching and killing small animals and fish.
"The feeding habits, diet and food-gathering behaviour of cave bears must therefore have been more similar to those of black bears than brown bears, with both cave and black bears using their claws more for scratching and digging," writes Dr Diedrich.
Sleeping dens
The footprints also reveal that the prehistoric bears wandered the cave's inner caverns, even walking down to a stream to drink, possibly during the time the bears were hibernating. Scratch marks even indicate that very young bears lived inside, evidence that bears were born and raised in the cave.
Hibernation nests are better known from other sites, but few have been analysed in detail.
In the cave, known as Ursilor cave after its bear inhabitants, Dr Diedrich uncovered 140 cave bear beds, most oval-shaped and up to 50cm deep.
Scratch marks establish for the first time that the bears excavated these beds to sleep on, and there is evidence some even died in their sleep.
Dr Diedrich has found the skeletons of an adult and a one-year-old cub within their beds, the cub still in its sleeping position.
Bear killers
But it is the battles these bears fought with the equally impressive cave lions that is perhaps the most intriguing.
Three skeletons of cave lions have been found so far 800m deep within Romania's Ursilor cave.
European cave lions were a subspecies of the modern lion, which today exists in Africa, with a small population remaining in Asia Lions are the only social species of big cat, and the latest research suggests they live in prides to secure the best habitat Relive the BBC's best big cats moments with Big Cat Diary presenter Jonathan Scott These remains overlap with the cave bear's territory, suggesting the lions had entered to hunt and kill bears.
Another cave, known as the Zoolithen cave near Burggeilenreuth, Germany has yielded a far more impressive hoard, however.
Dr Diedrich has researched the remains of 13 cave lions found in Zoolithen.
In the journal Historical Biology he describes how none were cubs, suggesting that cave lions, like their modern African relatives, didn't also raise their young inside the rocky caverns.
Crucially the lions were mostly older males, reinforcing the impression that only the bigger males entered the caves, supporting the idea they did so to hunt bears.
Or it could be that whole prides entered, with the adult males doing most of the fighting.
The cave lions may have targeted the bears after their usual prey, mammoth and woolly rhinoceros, disappeared.
Hunters become victims
Backing this idea are two cave bear skulls found within Zoolithen cave, which have been marked by lion's teeth.
Also found are the skeletons of giant hyenas, which also frequented similar Pleistocene caves.
They suggest that lions and hyenas also did battle, with some of these lion remains being dragged into the caves by giant hyenas, packs of which either killed the lions of scavenged their carcasses.
And hyenas may have scavenged cave bear bodies.
"Lions and hyenas ate the intestines and inner organs first," says Dr Diedrich.
But they also strongly suggest that some cave lions lost the fight with cave bears.
Being herbivorous, the cave bears wouldn't have scavenged the bodies of any lions they killed.
Instead they would have just trampled them into the cave floor, leaving the evidence we see today of these titanic struggles.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 4:14:17 GMT -5
Cave Bear vs Cave Lion
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:07:39 GMT -5
By Polar... There is plenty of evidence which shows that cave lions attacked younger cave bears (by cave ambush, mainly) in their den or scavenged from dead cave bear carcasses. However, no cave lion was willing to take on a adult cave bear, face-to-face, as they would lose drastically. Even female cave bears proved too much for any adult, male cave lion.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:09:05 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/ www.bbc.co.uk/nature/12819243 Bear killers But it is the battles these bears fought with the equally impressive cave lions that is perhaps the most intriguing. Three skeletons of cave lions have been found so far 800m deep within Romania's Ursilor cave.These remains overlap with the cave bear's territory, suggesting the lions had entered to hunt and kill bears. Another cave, known as the Zoolithen cave near Burggeilenreuth, Germany has yielded a far more impressive hoard, however. Dr Diedrich has researched the remains of 13 cave lions found in Zoolithen. Within a larger scaled project about the taphonomy of steppe lion bones of Central Europe in and outside of caves a modified model can be presented for lion remains in cave bear den caves. One reason of the lion bone presence in caves, especially at the entrances, is activity of hyenas (DIEDRICH, 2009c). Those to lions antagonistic behaving second large predators of the Ice Age of Europe must have imported lion carcass remains into their cave dens, such as described not only for the Perick Caves (DIEDRICH, 2009a). Whereas at such sites incomplete and single lion bones or jaws and skulls with chew or cracking marks are known, never articulated skeletons are reported. The taphonomic situation of lion remains in caves becomes much more complex resulting from a new study of several cave bear den caves in the Sauerland Karst, Germany (Perick caves, Martins Cave, Bilstein Cave, Keppler Cave), Harz Mountain, Germany (Hermanns Cave) (DIEDRICH, 2009b-f), and Carpathians, Romania (Ursilor Cave). In the Hermanns Cave and in the Ursilor Cave originally articulated skeletons of the large cats were found deeply in the cave bear dens, several hundred to up to 800 meters deep, even after difficult passages (DIEDRICH et al., 2010). A similar cave bear den penetrating situation by lions but not that deep is found at the Balve Cave, Bilstein Cave and Keppler Cave (Sauerland Karst, NW Germany). All those caves prove that lions went time by time into caves and died there most probably as a result of lion-cave bear antagonism. All lion Panthera leo spelaea (GOLDFUSS, 1810) material studied is from more or less grown up animals, whereas juvenile lions are lacking. It is unclear, if mainly females are dominantly present deep in the caves – which possibly built such as in modern lion clans the hunting packs. Steppe lions never used caves to raise up their cubs, nor to hide or protect themselves, especially because the caves were occupied by hyenas and cave bears (DIEDRICH, 2007). The only reason of the presence of articulated lion skeletons, sometimes being scattered and disarticulated (all situations documented in the Ursilor Cave), must have been an active cave bear hunt, which took place most probably especially in winter times, when food prey sources were scarce, and when it was most easy to kill bears during hibernation, especially the cubs. During such attacks a grown up cave bear could have killed easily a lion, but as a herbivore, those cave bears would not have touched a lion carcass. This might explain articulated lion skeletons deep in cave bear den caves best. This predation stress of lions onto cave bears during winter times seems to be the second main reason (first are hyenas cf. DIEDRICH, 2009c) why cave bears hibernated as deep as possible in caves, even climbing through dangerous and difficult passages. In the cave bear den Ursilor Cave the bears went even up to the end 1,500 meters deep through difficult passages, a situation which is present at many large cave bear den caves all over Central Europe – hibernating deeply in caves was the protection against attacks of hyenas and lions during their hibernation. Whereas hyenas are bad climbers and not able to follow and hunt cave bears deeply in many caves, the felids are best climbers and could have reached deep branches of large cave systems. Diedrich C. 2009, Cave bear predation by steppe lions in Central Europe – and another reason why cave bears hibernated deeply in caves. Three Late Pleistocene steppe lions Panthera leo spelaea (Goldfuss 1810) skeleton remains were found within a new exploration campaign in the Ursilor Cave of western Romania (Carpathians), whereas in former times only a single lion bone remain was reported at the entrance (TERZEA, 1978). Those new discoveries are three articulated skeletons with different degrees of preservation. All of them were found 800 meters deep in the cave next to the hibernation plateaus of cave bears (DIEDRICH et al., 2009). One lioness skeleton is weathered and was found directly on an active small river stream, which eroded and drifted parts of it downstream. A second young lioness skeleton was found besides articulated cave bear skeletons (possibly mother and her cub) on the cave bear hibernation plateau, in strongly weathered state. Here, in contrast, the carcass was scattered and deep bites and chew marks even on the skull and on the limb bones indicate scavenging activities of an unknown larger predator. Finally a third one, also close to the other two seems to be a strong lioness or small male. This is a fully articulated skeleton, the most complete find in Romania (cf. single bone remains in: SAMSON & KOVACS, 1967; TERZEA, 1965, 1978; ŞTIUCĂ, 2000). Diedrich, C. 2009. New Upper Pleistocene steppe lion skeleton finds in the Ursilor Cave bear den, Romania. The cave bears also often touched the slopes with their bodies, leaving many fine, parallel hair impressions imprinted in the clay. Some bears died in the cave hibernation beds, including an adult and a one-year-old cub. Both skeletons were found with “scattered bone beds”on the plateaus in the distal part of the cave (Scientific Reserve), but only the cub was in a sleeping position. This cub,a young male,was found in as light depression or cave bear bed surrounded by cub-sized scratch marks, indicating that it was the maker of the bed. A larger cave bear animal lay on the plateau close to the cub but not in any depression, suggesting either that the animal did not die during hibernation or that cave bears may not have always excavated deep depressions to sleep in. A final possibility is its kill by a lion, since a scattered steppe lion P. leo spelaea skeleton was found on the same plateau. Diedrich, C. 2011. An Overview of the Ichnological and Ethological Studies in the Cave Bear Den in Urscedililor Cave (Western Carpathians, Romania).
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:09:45 GMT -5
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618211001182 shaggygod.proboards.com/The prey choice of extinct cave lions Panthera spelaea was determined using bone collagen isotopic signatures in the Belgian Ardennes and the Swabian Jura between 40,000 and 25,000 years ago as well as in the Late-glacial of the northwestern Alp foreland and of the Paris Basin. More than 370 specimens of large carnivorous and herbivorous mammals from 25 sites coeval with cave lion were analyzed. The isotopic results point to an individualistic prey choice for cave lions, with some individuals more oriented on reindeer and others on young cave bears. The isotopic signatures and therefore dietary choice of cave lions did not overlap with those of cave hyenas, indicating competitive exclusion between the large predators. The most recent western European cave lions seem to have been consuming mainly reindeer until the local extirpation of this prey species, which coincides chronologically with their own extinction. This restricted prey choice may be involved in the extinction of this large predator in Western Europe.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:11:23 GMT -5
www.bbc.co.uk/nature/12819243Battle royale: Prehistoric cave bears versus cave lions Matt Walker By Matt Walker Deep inside the bowels of a dark cave in central Europe, a noise rouses a fierce creature. Sleeping on its bed, a giant cave bear opens one eye, alert to any intruder. It stands, lifting its massive 400kg frame and bares its teeth. In front of it is an equally sized cave lion; a giant predatory cat, and the cave bear's mortal enemy. Only one will survive, while the bones of the fallen will litter the cave floor for millennia. New evidence reveals how such titanic struggles likely took place in caves across central Europe in the Upper Pleistocene epoch, which ended around 11,500 years ago. While excavating caves in Germany and Romania, scientists have unearthed the bones of large numbers of cave bears, a now extinct species that stood bigger than today's grizzly bears. The bears' bones, claw marks they left in the caves in which they lived, and even the beds they slept on, paint the best picture yet of how these magnificent creatures once lived. But more than that, researchers have also uncovered the petrified bones of the cave bear's foe, the Pleistocene cave lion. More than 25% bigger than today's African lions, the cave lion was itself an impressive predator, one that may have specialised in hunting cave bears for food. Details of the two massive animals' remarkable battles have been released by palaeontologist Dr Cajus Diedrich of PaleoLogic, based in Halle, Germany. "We have found spectacular things," he told BBC News. "Cave bear dens with skeleton remains, which [show] cave bears clearly were eaten by large predators." Paws and claws In the journal Ichnos, he describes the results of a new survey of a cave bear den in a cave in the Western Carpathian mountains of Romania, in central Europe. During extensive surveys inside, Dr Diedrich has discovered tens of thousands of bones belonging to several generations of cave bears, from young cubs to old animals. Lions and hyenas ate the intestines and inner organs first” Palaeontologist Dr Cajus Diedrich The location of the bones reveals that the bears likely only entered the cave through the main opening and inhabited its drier areas. He has also found several hundred tracks made by cave bears walking through the caverns, scratch marks on the walls made by bears and even hibernation nests the bears dug out to sleep on. Well preserved foot prints are rare, and they can help establish the behaviour of the cave bears compared to modern brown bears or black bears. For example, cave bears made much larger prints than those of its later relatives, and had short broad claws. That suggests cave bears had dull digging claws like black bears, and were herbivorous. In contrast, brown bears are omnivorous and have sharp pointed claws useful for catching and killing small animals and fish. "The feeding habits, diet and food-gathering behaviour of cave bears must therefore have been more similar to those of black bears than brown bears, with both cave and black bears using their claws more for scratching and digging," writes Dr Diedrich. Sleeping dens The footprints also reveal that the prehistoric bears wandered the cave's inner caverns, even walking down to a stream to drink, possibly during the time the bears were hibernating. Scratch marks even indicate that very young bears lived inside, evidence that bears were born and raised in the cave. Hibernation nests are better known from other sites, but few have been analysed in detail. In the cave, known as Ursilor cave after its bear inhabitants, Dr Diedrich uncovered 140 cave bear beds, most oval-shaped and up to 50cm deep. Scratch marks establish for the first time that the bears excavated these beds to sleep on, and there is evidence some even died in their sleep. Dr Diedrich has found the skeletons of an adult and a one-year-old cub within their beds, the cub still in its sleeping position. Bear killers But it is the battles these bears fought with the equally impressive cave lions that is perhaps the most intriguing. Three skeletons of cave lions have been found so far 800m deep within Romania's Ursilor cave. European cave lions were a subspecies of the modern lion, which today exists in Africa, with a small population remaining in Asia Lions are the only social species of big cat, and the latest research suggests they live in prides to secure the best habitat These remains overlap with the cave bear's territory, suggesting the lions had entered to hunt and kill bears. Another cave, known as the Zoolithen cave near Burggeilenreuth, Germany has yielded a far more impressive hoard, however. Dr Diedrich has researched the remains of 13 cave lions found in Zoolithen. In the journal Historical Biology he describes how none were cubs, suggesting that cave lions, like their modern African relatives, didn't also raise their young inside the rocky caverns. Crucially the lions were mostly older males, reinforcing the impression that only the bigger males entered the caves, supporting the idea they did so to hunt bears. Or it could be that whole prides entered, with the adult males doing most of the fighting. The cave lions may have targeted the bears after their usual prey, mammoth and woolly rhinoceros, disappeared. Hunters become victims Backing this idea are two cave bear skulls found within Zoolithen cave, which have been marked by lion's teeth. Also found are the skeletons of giant hyenas, which also frequented similar Pleistocene caves They suggest that lions and hyenas also did battle, with some of these lion remains being dragged into the caves by giant hyenas, packs of which either killed the lions of scavenged their carcasses. And hyenas may have scavenged cave bear bodies. "Lions and hyenas ate the intestines and inner organs first," says Dr Diedrich. But they also strongly suggest that some cave lions lost the fight with cave bears. Being herbivorous, the cave bears wouldn't have scavenged the bodies of any lions they killed. Instead they would have just trampled them into the cave floor, leaving the evidence we see today of these titanic struggles.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:12:02 GMT -5
www.wired.com/2011/11/cave-lion-diet/ Ancient Cave Lion Bones Reveal Big Cats’ Diet BY ANDREW CURRY, ScienceNOW A quarter larger than today’s lions, the European cave lion was one of the biggest cats around 12,000 years ago. Now, an unusually sophisticated analysis of its bones is revealing what these creatures ate—and why they may have disappeared. Although they were certainly massive cats, the term “cave lion” is a bit of a misnomer. Unlike today’s lions, males probably didn’t have manes, and they appear to have been solitary hunters. What’s more, though their bones are best preserved in caves, they probably lived in the open. But they did have one thing in common with their modern relatives: they appear to have worried humans. The big cats show up in ice age cave paintings and in ivory figurines, suggesting that they were a major concern for our ancestors. To figure out what these lions hunted, biogeologist Hervé Bocherens and colleagues at the University of Tübingen in Germany, analyzed bone samples from 14 cave lions—found in four caves in France and central Europe—that lived between 12,000 and 40,000 years ago. The team focused on the chemical content of the bone collagen, which is often well-preserved, even in bones tens of thousands of years old. By incinerating a tiny fragment of preserved bone—usually less than a milligram—researchers can identify the molecules inside it and determine an animal’s diet. Scientists have perfected the technique over the years. It was used recently to look at the diet of Neandertals, but this is one of the first studies to use it to look at a nonhuman predator—and the analysis is now sensitive enough to look several steps down the food chain. This enabled Bocherens to determine not only what cave lions ate but also what their prey ate. And that made it possible to tell, for example, whether lions were targeting full-size cave bears or their more vulnerable cubs, because adults and babies eat different diets themselves. “There’s a difference between the [chemical] signal of adults and babies,” Bocherens says. “Babies drink the milk of the mother.” As it turned out, this distinction was important. Bocherens’s analysis, reported in the 6 December issue of Quaternary International, revealed that the cave lions occasionally ate bear cubs but not adults. Their favorite food, however, was reindeer, which Bocherens and his team determined consumed massive quantities of lichen, much as their modern descendants did. The cave lion diet, Bocherens says, appears to have been much more finicky than that of today’s lions, which eat just about anything they can catch.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:13:58 GMT -5
By Polar.... According to the articles, Cave Lions weren't really fond of hunting excessively large herbivores and mainly stuck to smaller cervids and bovines. Just like the American Lion, it was more often a solitary hunter than the modern lion.
However, the American Lion targeted huge-sized prey (rhino-like indricotheres, giant bison, giant camels, young mammoths) than either, which gave it an extra-durable humerus for grappling with prey.
From Ursus Arctos at Carnivora:
"The study uses a ratio of lower jaw strength for absorbing forces from biting down ("Zx") to lower jaw strength for resisting torsional stresses (i.e. struggling prey) ("Zy"). A high Zx/Zy ratio shows either:
1) The prey was strongly secured by strong forelimbs before the killing bite was made
2) The prey was strongly secured by a group before a killing bite was made
3) Some combination of both
Some Zx/Zy ratios at the canines from this and another study by the same author:
Gray Wolf: 0.90
Lion: 1.25
Tiger: 1.35
Leopard: 1.37
Jaguar: 1.43
Cougar: 1.46
Clouded Leopard: 1.83 American Lion: 1.84
Smilodon Fatalis: 1.89
Smilodon Populator: 2.49
Therrien argues below that the american lion had much stronger forelimbs than modern lions and could likely restain prey securely. He also argues that small groups could have hunted together as well.
The Zx/Zycanine value of Panthera atrox (1.84; Fig. 5) is much higher than that of other large felids and similar to Neofelis nebulosa, indicating that dorsoventral stresses prevailed in the symphyseal region and that labiolingual and torsional stresses exerted by struggling prey were relatively lower. While it is generally agreed that the large body size of Panthera atrox allowed it to tackle very large herbivores, such as bison, horses, ground sloths, camels, and proboscideans (e.g. Kurt´en & Anderson, 1980; Harris, 1992; Anyonge, 1993), it seems paradoxical for this Pleistocene predator to have experienced lower torsional stresses than by extant lions that hunt smaller prey (Schaller, 1972). Although extant felids use their forelimbs and claws to restrain prey (Gonyea&Ashworth, 1975), their jaws must still be able to remain locked on the neck or muzzle of prey and withstand the unpredictable stresses induced as prey struggle to escape. If Panthera atrox were a predator of large herbivores, one would expect it to have Zx/Zycanine values similar to, or even lower than, those of extant lions. Claw and tooth marks left on a Pleistocene steppe bison mummy (Bison priscus; M. L. Guthrie, 1988; R. D. Guthrie, 1990) suggest that Panthera atrox adopted killing techniques similar to those used by modern lions. However, Anyonge (1996) has shown that the cross-sectional geometric properties (i.e. bending strength) of the limbs of Panthera atrox, particularly of the humerus, were much greater than those of the extant lion, being closer to those of the brown bear, Ursus arctos. In other words, the extinct lion had much stronger forelimbs than an extant lion of similar body size. Therefore, large prey could have been primarily subdued and restrained by the extremely powerful forelimbs of Panthera atrox, which would have greatly reduced stresses on the mandible during the canine bite. Furthermore, because the Zx/Zycanine values of Panthera atrox are so high, it is possible that cooperative hunting may have been common practice in that species, where one or a few individuals would have restrained a large herbivore while another delivered the canine killing bite. Indeed, the high degree of cephalization observed in Panthera atrox (Kurt´en & Anderson, 1980), the claw and tooth marks left on a bison mummy, and native American cave paintings (M. L. Guthrie, 1988; R. D. Guthrie, 1990) suggest that the extinct lion may have hunted in small groups of two or three individuals, rather than in a pride. This possibility is further supported by the size distribution of Panthera atrox individuals in the Rancho La Brea deposits, which indicates that the extinct lion did not form prides as modern lions do but may have hunted in pairs or alone (Jefferson, 1992)."
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:15:04 GMT -5
By Polar.... Both the American Lion and modern lion seem to look less robust than the Cave Lion, skeleton-wise. So the American version must have had quite a thick humerus to make up for the longer humerus, in order for it to be strong.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2017 6:18:59 GMT -5
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08912963.2010.546529?journalCode=ghbi20& The largest European lion Panthera leo spelaea (Goldfuss 1810) population from the Zoolithen Cave, Germany: specialised cave bear predators of Europe Cajus G. Diedrich Pages 271-311 | Received 09 Nov 2010, Accepted 06 Dec 2010, Published online: 11 Mar 2011 Remains of 13 individuals with 3/1 male/female ratio of the extinct Upper Pleistocene lion Panthera leo spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810) from the Zoolithen Cave near Burggeilenreuth (Bavaria, Germany) include the holotype skull and all paratype material. The highest mortality rate for the Zoolithen Cave lions is in their reproductive adult ages. Bite marks on lion bones or skulls are results of hyena activities, or rare cannibalism of lions under stress situations. Lions were possibly also killed in battles with cave bears during predation on hibernating bears in winter times. This cave bear hunt specialisation in caves overlaps with the ecological behaviour of cave bear feeding by Ice Age-spotted hyenas. Both largest Ice Age predators, lions and hyenas, had to specialise on feeding herbivorous cave bears in boreal forest mountainous cave rich regions, where the mammoth steppe megafauna prey was absent. This cave bear hunt by felids, and scavenging by hyenas and other large carnivores such as leopards and wolves explains why cave bears hibernated deep in to the European caves, for protection reasons against predators. Within such lion–cave bear and even lion–hyena conflicts in the caves lions must have been killed sometimes, explaining mainly the skeleton occurrences in different European caves.
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Post by brobear on Apr 22, 2017 9:43:52 GMT -5
The grizzly ( European brown bear ) of the Pleistocene was also a very large bear. They too would have been "out in the woods" with wolves, hyenas, and lions. I would imagine that those young bears, of both the cave bears and the grizzlies, for the first few years after being separated from "Momma Bear" had to endure a life of constant vigil; rather like a soldier in a combat zone. Once full-grown, weighing from 600 pounds ( 272 kg ) to 1,000+ pounds ( 454+ kg ), life would have become much less stressful.
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Post by brobear on Jan 6, 2018 5:44:40 GMT -5
Brobear said: "FACT: It's a plain and simple truth: There is no evidence of cave lions ever killing a mature boar cave bear or grizzly. Neither the full-grown boar cave bear nor the full-grown boar grizzly has ever been a prey animal to any predator - anywhere - anytime - PERIOD."
Completely agree, with possible exception of Siberia. Some adult tigers could indeed kill larger bears but normally those were few-and-far-between and most of those bears are "satellite bears" (starving or otherwise weakened brown bears not able to hibernate due to lack of food). Otherwise, from Sumatra to paleo-Europe to the Barbary region, they never even think to attack bears at all when they know that their ursine cousins are very dangerous.
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Post by Polar on Jan 7, 2018 13:50:07 GMT -5
I don't know what happened, but the last post had mistaken me for you (probably because I quoted you), so I apologize for the confusion. Still don't know how to fix that.
Wedding ceremony is about to start in one hour. So I have a few more minutes to spare.
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Post by brobear on Jan 7, 2018 14:39:58 GMT -5
Brobear said: "FACT: It's a plain and simple truth: There is no evidence of cave lions ever killing a mature boar cave bear or grizzly. Neither the full-grown boar cave bear nor the full-grown boar grizzly has ever been a prey animal to any predator - anywhere - anytime - PERIOD." Completely agree, with possible exception of Siberia. Some adult tigers could indeed kill larger bears but normally those were few-and-far-between and most of those bears are "satellite bears" (starving or otherwise weakened brown bears not able to hibernate due to lack of food). Otherwise, from Sumatra to paleo-Europe to the Barbary region, they never even think to attack bears at all when they know that their ursine cousins are very dangerous. Actually, Polar, you mean shatun bear rather than satellite bear I believe. A shatun is a bear in trouble, having not gained the much-needed fat reserve to hibernate. He is starving and, due to the lack of fat, freezing too. Yes, a tiger might kill such a bear. But, killing an already dying animal is hardly worth the mention. A healthy full-grown grizzly boar has no natural predators. A satellite bear is always a big boar who has learned to locate and trail a tiger with the intention of either displacing the tiger from its kill or to feed on the big cat's leftovers. No grizzly completely makes a living in doing this. He is still an opportunist. Also, the satellite bear normally stalks female and subadult tigers. But I'm sure that male tigers are not immune to a big hungry boar grizzly.
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Post by brobear on Jan 7, 2018 14:42:05 GMT -5
Oops! Now back to cave bears.
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Post by brobear on Jan 8, 2018 16:34:31 GMT -5
The same can be said for the cave bear as for the grizzly: a full-grown cave bear boar was never a prey animal to any natural predator.
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Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2018 12:40:22 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Sept 14, 2018 3:47:12 GMT -5
www.thoughtco.com/cave-lion-1093066 Cave Lion Basics Scientific Name: Panthera leo spelaea Habitat: Woodlands and mountains of Eurasia Historical Period: Late Pleistocene-Modern (500,000-2,000 years ago) Size and Weight: Up to 7-8 feet long and 700-800 pounds Diet: Meat Distinguishing Characteristics: Large size; powerful limbs; possibly manes and stripes
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Post by brobear on Sept 30, 2018 16:04:48 GMT -5
synapsida.blogspot.com/?m=1 Lions in the Carpathians It's possible that this particular cave lion really did den in the cave. Modern lions don't do that, but, since they mainly live in prides, that might be difficult for them, and tigers and leopards do sometimes use caves as dens, so it's not unreasonable. Another possibility, however, especially given the lack of other cave lion fossils that seem to fit the pattern, was that this particular lion was searching for food when it died. We know that cave lions ate a variety of hoofed animals, with a particular focus on reindeer. But that's likely not all they ate. It has, for instance, been suggested that some cave lions attacked and ate cave bear cubs, perhaps while their mothers were hibernating. In this case, one thing we do know is that cave bears regularly used the cave, and raised cubs there. Might this cat have been hunting when it met its fate? It might seem extreme, but tigers have been reported to eat black and brown bear cubs (although not very often, it has to be said). In evolutionary terms, cave lions were undeniably "lions". But in their habits, at least when they lived in marginal habitats such as high mountains, they may have behaved more like tigers.
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Post by brobear on Oct 13, 2018 7:22:57 GMT -5
Battle royale: Prehistoric cave bears versus cave lions By Matt Walker Editor, BBC Nature 23 May 2011 Deep inside the bowels of a dark cave in central Europe, a noise rouses a fierce creature. Sleeping on its bed, a giant cave bear opens one eye, alert to any intruder. It stands, lifting its massive 400kg frame and bares its teeth. In front of it is an equally sized cave lion; a giant predatory cat, and the cave bear's mortal enemy. Only one will survive, while the bones of the fallen will litter the cave floor for millennia. New evidence reveals how such titanic struggles likely took place in caves across central Europe in the Upper Pleistocene epoch, which ended around 11,500 years ago. While excavating caves in Germany and Romania, scientists have unearthed the bones of large numbers of cave bears, a now extinct species that stood bigger than today's grizzly bears. The bears' bones, claw marks they left in the caves in which they lived, and even the beds they slept on, paint the best picture yet of how these magnificent creatures once lived. But more than that, researchers have also uncovered the petrified bones of the cave bear's foe, the Pleistocene cave lion. More than 25% bigger than today's African lions, the cave lion was itself an impressive predator, one that may have specialised in hunting cave bears for food. Details of the two massive animals' remarkable battles have been released by palaeontologist Dr Cajus Diedrich of PaleoLogic, based in Halle, Germany. "We have found spectacular things," he told BBC News. "Cave bear dens with skeleton remains, which [show] cave bears clearly were eaten by large predators." Paws and claws In the journal Ichnos, he describes the results of a new survey of a cave bear den in a cave in the Western Carpathian mountains of Romania, in central Europe. During extensive surveys inside, Dr Diedrich has discovered tens of thousands of bones belonging to several generations of cave bears, from young cubs to old animals. The location of the bones reveals that the bears likely only entered the cave through the main opening and inhabited its drier areas. He has also found several hundred tracks made by cave bears walking through the caverns, scratch marks on the walls made by bears and even hibernation nests the bears dug out to sleep on. Well preserved foot prints are rare, and they can help establish the behaviour of the cave bears compared to modern brown bears or black bears. For example, cave bears made much larger prints than those of its later relatives, and had short broad claws. That suggests cave bears had dull digging claws like black bears, and were herbivorous. In contrast, brown bears are omnivorous and have sharp pointed claws useful for catching and killing small animals and fish. "The feeding habits, diet and food-gathering behaviour of cave bears must therefore have been more similar to those of black bears than brown bears, with both cave and black bears using their claws more for scratching and digging," writes Dr Diedrich. Sleeping dens The footprints also reveal that the prehistoric bears wandered the cave's inner caverns, even walking down to a stream to drink, possibly during the time the bears were hibernating. A mounted cave bear skeleton Scratch marks even indicate that very young bears lived inside, evidence that bears were born and raised in the cave. Hibernation nests are better known from other sites, but few have been analysed in detail. In the cave, known as Ursilor cave after its bear inhabitants, Dr Diedrich uncovered 140 cave bear beds, most oval-shaped and up to 50cm deep. Scratch marks establish for the first time that the bears excavated these beds to sleep on, and there is evidence some even died in their sleep. Dr Diedrich has found the skeletons of an adult and a one-year-old cub within their beds, the cub still in its sleeping position. Bear killers But it is the battles these bears fought with the equally impressive cave lions that is perhaps the most intriguing. Three skeletons of cave lions have been found so far 800m deep within Romania's Ursilor cave. European cave lions were a subspecies of the modern lion, which today exists in Africa, with a small population remaining in Asia Lions are the only social species of big cat, and the latest research suggests they live in prides to secure the best habitat These remains overlap with the cave bear's territory, suggesting the lions had entered to hunt and kill bears. Another cave, known as the Zoolithen cave near Burggeilenreuth, Germany has yielded a far more impressive hoard, however. Dr Diedrich has researched the remains of 13 cave lions found in Zoolithen. In the journal Historical Biology he describes how none were cubs, suggesting that cave lions, like their modern African relatives, didn't also raise their young inside the rocky caverns. Crucially the lions were mostly older males, reinforcing the impression that only the bigger males entered the caves, supporting the idea they did so to hunt bears. Or it could be that whole prides entered, with the adult males doing most of the fighting. The cave lions may have targeted the bears after their usual prey, mammoth and woolly rhinoceros, disappeared. Hunters become victims Backing this idea are two cave bear skulls found within Zoolithen cave, which have been marked by lion's teeth. Sketch of a cave lion skeleton Also found are the skeletons of giant hyenas, which also frequented similar Pleistocene caves. They suggest that lions and hyenas also did battle, with some of these lion remains being dragged into the caves by giant hyenas, packs of which either killed the lions of scavenged their carcasses. And hyenas may have scavenged cave bear bodies. "Lions and hyenas ate the intestines and inner organs first," says Dr Diedrich. But they also strongly suggest that some cave lions lost the fight with cave bears. Being herbivorous, the cave bears wouldn't have scavenged the bodies of any lions they killed. Instead they would have just trampled them into the cave floor, leaving the evidence we see today of these titanic struggles. www.bbc.co.uk/nature/12819243
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