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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 28, 2020 16:08:08 GMT -5
theundertaker45 : As far as actual weghts are concerned, we have Prehistoric fauna having Spelaeus much larger than Ingressus. The only place where Ingressus is quoted to be larger is Wikipedia in the description section but they dont give any sources for that:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursus_ingressus
Now, i went to Wildfact and they dont seem to have a "Cave bear thread", but they do have a "bears of the Pleistocene" thread. So if you want, a good idea would be to ask Tigerluver or Grizzlyclaws which species was larger on average. Those guys should definitely know.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 28, 2020 16:31:14 GMT -5
That's some interesting stuff; I'll look to gather some information on Wild Fact.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 28, 2020 16:54:09 GMT -5
That's some interesting stuff; I'll look to gather some information on Wild Fact. Yeah, we have already seen what most sites say. The only thing left to do is ask those guys, they might have other reliable sources or charts that we haven't seen. This needs to be settled, lol.
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Post by brobear on Nov 28, 2020 18:32:13 GMT -5
According to tigerluver and a few others at wildfact.com/forum/topic-bears-of-the-pleistocene Ursus ingressaus was omnivorous while Ursus spelaeus was almost entirely vegetarian. But, there were smaller species of cave bears that lived up in barren high altitudes in mountains.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 28, 2020 22:55:24 GMT -5
Am reading thru the "bears of the Pleistocene" thread at Wildfact, trying to look for decisive data as to which species is larger. Here i found an important post from Grizzlyclaws:
"The Pleistocene vegetation might offer more protein than the one we currently have.
More or less, the herbivorous Cave bears and the omnivorous Cave bears were about the same size."
wildfact.com/forum/topic-bears-of-the-pleistocene?pid=27218#pid27218
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Post by brobear on Nov 29, 2020 4:58:04 GMT -5
Yes; I doubt you would really see any size difference if they were facing each other. The ingressus just happens to have the largest cave bear skull collected thus far. Comparing Ursus spelaeus spelaeus, the classical cave bear with Ursus kanivetz, the Medvezhiya cave bear ( ingressus ) is rather like comparing the salt water crocodile with the Nile crocodile.
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Post by brobear on Dec 27, 2020 6:21:31 GMT -5
Cave Lion - Cave Bear (Panthera Spelaea - Ursus Spelaeus; models by "SameerPrehistorica")
So easy to see why no evidence of a lion attack on a full-grown male cave bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 4, 2021 11:22:01 GMT -5
Composite results of the main traumatic and non-traumatic pathologies in Late Pleistocene Panthera leo spelaea of Europe.
Late Pleistocene Eurasian steppe lions Panthera leo spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810) frequently (3 of 13) have skull damage attributable to bites. Such evidence is found only in lions from hyena or cave bear dens. Wounds on frontal and parietal bones appear to be the result of battles during cave bear hunts, by antagonistic conflicts with hyenas, and less often from fights with conspecifics. Skull bite damage is extremely rare in modern lions, suggesting that this Eurasian lion pathology is the result of inter-specific (with cave bears) rather than intra-specific conflicts. The sex specificity of maxillary porosity (found only in lions among modern felidae) is also documented in its close genetic relation, P. l. spelaea. The pattern of skeletal exostotic reaction reveals them to have been pursuit rather than ambush predators.
... , 2011a. The limited gape of lions, compared to hyena and cave bears, is insufficient to allow a parietal bite (Andersson et al., 2011;Christiansen and Adolfssen, 2005). Localization of bites is atypical for hyena, but classic for Pleistocene bears. Interestingly, the injuries were not fatal, as evidenced by subsequent remodeling. Skull trauma (Fig. 7) found in skulls from cave bear and hyena den caves of Europe in P. l. spelaea is attributable to combat, especially with cave bears (Diedrich, 2010a, and herein). The latter apparently relates to Eurasian P. l. spelaea's predation on cave bear cubs, resulting in battles with protective adults. P. l. spelaea were specialized cave bear ...
... Bears commonly break their teeth, primarily their canines (Sonne et al., 2007) (Fig. 5b), mainly due to intense male-to-male competition (Ramsay and Stirling, 1986) and other ecological stresses, as seen in other large carnivores (e.g., Rothchild and Diedrich, 2012). In Hohle Fels, many of these broken canines have been found in both Middle and Upper Paleolithic horizons (NR = 51) (Figs. 5 and 6). ...
... The most famous hyena skull with a really deep sagital bite wound (Soemmering von 1828; Diedrich 2011a) is another excellent case of a skull with bite damage from Zoolithen Cave. All three specimens have canine tooth bites damage in the areas of the skull where carnivores/bears typically inflict damage during predatory or defensive attacks -the head is the main focus of attack -as in modern hyena/lion conflicts (Diedrich 2011c, Rothschild & Diedrich 2012. ...
... As with modern lions, the Ice Age steppe lions probably fed first of all on the intestines and inner organs of the bears (Figure 13(a)), leaving large canine tooth marks and scratches on the bones, especially on the soft spongiosa of vertebrae and long bone joints, as found in the cave bear bone material from the Sophie's Cave (Figures 6-9). The bite damages on skulls of both, lions [90] and cave bears ( Figure 15) seem to have resulted from their battles in the caves from intra-or interspecies fights. ...
www.researchgate.net/figure/Composite-results-of-the-main-traumatic-and-non-traumatic-pathologies-in-Late-Pleistocene_fig5_257731246
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Post by brobear on May 17, 2021 14:39:54 GMT -5
Homotherium latidens
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Post by brobear on Jul 7, 2022 3:41:54 GMT -5
Credits to: Asad Hermann’s Cave (Germany) – A Late Pleistocene Cave Bear Den By Cajus G. Diedrich Originally published: October 14, 2015 October 14, 2015 .Also one humerus from the Hermann's Cave falls into those large variants. The Hutenheim and other lions remains from the upper Terrace reach nearly similar large size as Cromerian Glacial stages lions P.L. fossolis..(large p.l.spelaea males seem to the in similar sizes of smaller p.l.fossilis females. ..the prey of the lions is much more difficult to reconstruct,. Lion or Lioness- Single or Pack Cave Bear Killers? ..Hunting cave bears in the caves seems to have performed mainly by females..In the new case of the Hermann's Cave the ratio correlates to the later cases. There are three male's and one female..As found similar in fourth other convincing examples.., only adult to elderly and hunting specialist lions tempted the cave bear hunt into larger cave bear cave systems..more males have been killed..less successful or hunted bears more often..If Ice Age lions hunted the same or similar ways, the cave bear hunters must have been mainly males which were able to fight or kill adult cave bears, whether the smaller or the larger cave bears..both were recorded in the Hermans Cave..old individual lost the fight with by a cave bear. All four lions canines were flaked, round polished and useless for any kill-bite..strong weakness of the lion. ....in a fight between only a single lion those must have been mainly successful even in killer smaller cave bears .U.s. eremus. Large U.ingressus cave bear must be expected to have been killed, for sure was not easy because of its greater weight and large canine weapon..The amount which is at Hermans Cave also only 2.2% calcuates approximately to only one dead lion in a cave bear den due to lost battles per 10,000 years. books.google.com/books?id=5AQ5DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=Ursus+spelaeus+male+killed+by+lions&source=bl&ots=WE3j1EpmT5&sig=dTg-uzfNq0odq8KT44FC0_ipAKc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l5jptaTdAhWqt1kKHQ7FBVw4ChDoATACegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Ursus%20spelaeus%20male%20killed%20by%20lions&f=truewww.researchgate.net/publication/320592220_Hermann%27s_Cave_Germany_-_A_Late_Pleistocene_cave_bear_den_Famous_Planet_Earth_Caves_Volume_2 Weak elder lions were killed by the larger cave bear but only a few. Dr. Diedrich suggests larger cave bears may have been hunted by male lions. The Hermann's cave lions were nearly as large as P.L.fossilis. The lion was killed by female cave bear "Females weighed 225–250 kg (496–551 lbs)."
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Post by brobear on Jul 7, 2022 3:42:38 GMT -5
From above post:
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Post by Montezuma on Feb 20, 2023 6:30:25 GMT -5
Cave bear and Cave lion intereactions. "Since rare in Polish sites, this state of affairs and the predominance of can be partially explained by their specialisation in hunting on cave bears during the times when the other more typical food sources like ungulates were scarce. Spelaeoid bears U. spelaeus sensu lato were atypical prey for the Pleistocene lion, but when food was scarce, lions entered deeply into caves and hunted them (Argant, 1988, 1991, 2000; Diedrich, 2012). It was risky business facing this powerful animal in total darkness, and many lions were killed during such incidents, but not eaten by herbivorous bears. Another explanation of the predominance of males is that larger and stronger male lions more often tend to hunt very large preys and went into the conflicts with other carnivores than females which resulted in higher injuries and mortality (Turner and Ant´on, 1997)."
"Polish lions in particular, also had extremely powerful forelimbs. It might had given a great advantage when hunting a cave bear in narrow and dark cave corridors. Speleoid bears were atypical prey for the Pleistocene lion, but when the food was scarce, lions entered deeply into caves and hunted bears (Argant, 1988, 1991, 2000; Diedrich, 2013a-b, 2012, 2014, 2017; Marciszak et al., 2014, 2019a, b, 2020). It was risky business facing this powerful animal in total darkness, but their strong forelimbs might have helped subdue prey due to a lethal bite. During such fights, lions also lost their battles, especially with large bears, but their carcasses were mostly not scavenged by herbivorous cave bear and left inside the caves. This behaviour might be interpreted as the main reason for the accumulation of lion bones, which was not typical cave dweller as well (Diedrich, 2011a; b, 2012, 2014, 2017)."
"Evidences of such activity were found on the numerous bear bones belonged mostly to cubs and young specimens, less than one-year-old. But also many bones of adult animals hold bite marks, chewing and scratches, clear proof of predators’ activity. One of the most spectacular examples is a neurocranium of the young female of Ursus ingressus, which holds a few holes, with two main on the frontal and right parietal bones (Nowakowski and Stefaniak, 2015). The blurred edges of the external lamellae and sclerotic lines confirmed that the cave bear female had survived the blows, however because of illness caused by them it died in the next few months. They were interpreted as remains of a powerful bite from the canines of another carnivore (Nowakowski and Stefaniak, 2015). Possible explanation is an attack of P. s. spelaea, since the hunting specialisation by this species on bears is well known due to nitrogen isotope signs (Bocherens et al., 2011a, b; Bocherens, 2015). The skull was found in the trench K III in Lion’s Hall of Nied´zwiedzia Cave, where also a skull of P. s. spelaea of considerable size (43 cm) was found (Wiszniowska, 1978; Barycka, 2008; Marciszak et al., 2014). The distance between two main holes (ca. 85 mm) fits well with the canines spacing in the lion specimen. Additionally, the cranium has scraches, sharp-edged longitudinal scars indicating the use of sharp-edged tool which was interpreted as an effect of skinning and possible indirect proof of the human’s existence (Nowakowski and Stefaniak, 2015). However, in our opinion, another explanation is possible. Recently, when the Siberian tiger Panthera tigris tigris (Linnaeus, 1758) hunts on brown bear, it jumps on a bear from above, and tried to hold and overpowered its head in frontal paws, and simultaneously biting through its cervical vertebrae (Ognev, 1935; Maz´ak, 1979; 1981; Kirillova and Tesakov, 2008; Kirillova et al., 2009). During such fights, tiger claws usually left sharp-edged longitudinal scars on bear’s head, the same as observed on the skull of the cave bear female from the Nied´zwiedzia Cave. There will be no doubt that it will be correct to extrapolate such a hunting behaviour on P. s. spelaea (Kirillova et al., 2009; Diedrich, 2017)."
"Pleistocene are hardly to reconstruct, in view of scarce direct evidences. As was discussed above, the Pleistocene lion attacked and killed cave bears, and smaller brown bears also falled victim of lion attacks."
"Largest males of the Polish specimens of P. s. spelaea reached up to 400 kg, which is double of the weight of the average Siberian tiger. However, U. a. priscus was truly gigantic bear with an average weight of adult males ca. 600–800 kg, and it can reach even up to 1500 kg in the largest individuals (Musil, 2018; Marciszak et al., 2019c). Such immense individuals are known among other from Nied´zwiedzia Cave, where they co-occurred with the cave lion. In direct confrontation with the horse-size bear, even the largest cat, hyena clan or wolf pack was without any chance and usually left their rightfull kill for the competitor (Bocherens et al., 2011a, b, 2015; Bocherens, 2015)".
Two scenes illustrating the complexity of relationships between Panthera spelaea spelaea and different bears in Nied´zwiedzia cave. At the top hunting scene where lion using powerful forelimbs subdue cave bear Ursus ingressus before delivering the lethal bite. Below lion loses battle for carcass with immense steppe brown bear Ursus arctos priscus. Drawn by W. Gornig.
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347492257_The_Pleistocene_lion_Panthera_spelaea_Goldfuss_1810_from_Poland_-_A_review&ved=2ahUKEwje7qyEgKT9AhUBUKQEHTwXDiUQFnoECA0QAQ&authuser=1&usg=AOvVaw01RGkJJVg9ZariI5laYbO1
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Post by brobear on Feb 24, 2023 4:23:35 GMT -5
Every bear killed by a tiger has been killed by a bite to the back of the bear's neck right at the base of the skull. This post above by Montezuma shows strong evidence that lions used the same tactics. In both cases, both lions and tigers, adult male brown or cave bears are not chosen and never ambushed. This is also strong evidence of basic cat behavior among large Pantherines. About "basic cat behavior"; we can observe the behavior between cougar and black bear and between leopard and sloth bear and figure that there is no reason to suspect that the behavior between an Amur tiger and an Ussuri brown bear would be any different. *I will edit and add; this is really a major find Montezuma. Both brown bears and cave bears are/were ambushed and killed by the exact same methods by both lions and tigers. In both cases, adolescent bears and adult females only.
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Post by brobear on Feb 24, 2023 4:49:42 GMT -5
Mama Bear kills male lion.
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