|
Post by tom on Nov 22, 2019 14:29:16 GMT -5
Alright, Brobar and LarsMaritimus, here it is. Short faced bear is scaled to ~165 cm SH based on the very biggest specimen while Kelmayisaurus is ~9 meters total length/ Credit to blaze and Teratophoneus, respectively. Having said all that, I'm having a very hard time believing they weigh the same. Scaling down from relatives would get ~3 tonnes for Kelmayisaurus, and although it appears a bit more gracile than relatives it's not by much. The bear's ~800-900 kg, while the dinosaur is probably around 2.5 tonnes Given that your scale is even remotely accurate. That Dinosaur would rip that bear to pieces IMO.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 14, 2020 5:12:24 GMT -5
The largest theropod a polar bear can kill would be an utahraptor and a nanqusaurus. The utah raptor possesses the utensils to kill a kodiak and polar bear (the large sickle claw and a mouth that can open wider and bite more surface area). The kodiak and polar bear, however, can win in an upclose battle due to denser bones, a bulkier built, and more powerful forearms to assist them in a grapple. Both the kodiak and polar bears also haves stronger jaws than the utahraptors despite having smaller mouths. The nanqusaurus however has stronger jaws than the bears.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 14, 2020 5:14:31 GMT -5
A 2 tonne allosaurus will be too much for any bear.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 14, 2020 5:27:44 GMT -5
A 2 tonne allosaurus will be too much for any bear. In his own world, within his domain, the grizzly is king. But in the Mesozoic Era, he would be a raccoon.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 14, 2020 5:55:45 GMT -5
A 2 tonne allosaurus will be too much for any bear. In his own world, within his domain, the grizzly is king. But in the Mesozoic Era, he would be a raccoon. What is the largest dinosaur a grizzly bear can kill in your opinion?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 20:24:36 GMT -5
So in general, when it comes to jaw based predators vs grappling predators (eg: bears vs crocodilians), what do you think are some attributes for either side that can help them against the other at parity? I'll start it off. In my opinion, there are a number of traits that can help a jaw based predator to win against a grappler of similar size. They are as follows:
1.) You need a proportionately big head. A big head implies that you have a big mouth and that the absolute clearance between your upper and lower jaws at maximum gape is enormous. Having a wide jaw joint gape angle will help even further with this. Having a huge jaw span will maximize the ease with which you can grab something (this is one of the reasons why grappling is an advantage; your wide arm span makes it easy to grab something and subsequently subdue and kill it), and in this case, it may just be one of the arms of your grappling opponent. Bonus points if you can fit the head of your opponent in your mouth; I trust I don't need to explain why that's so advantageous.
2.) Anything to help your jaws quickly get to where they need to be. The aforementioned big head might help with this to some degree, as having a big, long head inevitably increases reach. Something like a neck that increases linear acceleration of your skull and jaws, or perhaps just being able to accelerate your body quickly enough, will help as well.
3.) A very potent bite. Having a jaw apparatus that can easily be brought to bear means nothing if your jaws aren't a force to be reckoned with. The more damage your jaws can create in a given amount of time, the quicker you can seriously debilitate one of your foe's grappling arms, thereby getting rid of what is perhaps his greatest asset.
4.) Extra weapons. And ones that can actually be applied. If you've gotten ahold of your foe and want to cause as much damage to him as possible to get the fight over with, or maybe even if he has grabbed onto you, having some other weapons, and ones that you can actually implement, can be useful either to end the fight quicker or to loosen your opponent's grip and deal damage yourself.
You might think that I had certain real-life animals in mind when coming to this conclusion. And if you did, you'd be correct. Those animals were some select families of large-prey specialist theropods of varying sizes, several of which had representatives in the mass ranges of grappling carnivorans. Some other animals that meet the above requirements to varying degrees include some terrestrial crocodylomorphs and monitor lizards.
PS: I will make threads with some bears against these jaw based predators! Stay tuned for the debate if you're interested!
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 2, 2020 22:11:14 GMT -5
While grappling is not everything, it honestly does play a part in a fight mainly when it comes to mammal vs mammal. Having big jaws like a tyranosaurus rex and a huge Nile croc also plays a part.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Sept 3, 2020 3:28:21 GMT -5
In the topic: "Who Can Defeat a Grizzly?" I gave the crocodile: "1000+ pound crocodile ( on land ) - 50% ( questionable )". Notice I end with "questionable". There are no jaw-based-killers where brown bears live. The bear would have to depend not only on his grappling ability, but also on his intellect. Quote: S: I will make threads with some bears against these jaw based predators! Stay tuned for the debate if you're interested! - Yes Please.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 6:39:58 GMT -5
You won't be disappointed, brobear!
Out of curiosity, for those who were planning to post such, what are some characteristics you think a grappler will need to beat a jaw based predator of the same size? I specialise in the jaw based predators so I'm curious to see the other side of the coin.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 3, 2020 7:07:07 GMT -5
A grappler will need jaws that can do damage even if it’s jaws are not as strong as the jaw based predator of similar weight of course and greater weaponry such as claws. For example, a polar bear vs hyenadon, the bear’s jaws might be weaker but it’s teeth can still cut through the hide of walrus, beluga, and narwhale with tougher skin the the hyenadon.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 7:13:46 GMT -5
Specimens are FMNH PM 24880 and ZCDM V 5000, skeletals from the Alaska government's website and Greg Paul respectively. Both specimens weigh 1 tonne each.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 3, 2020 7:15:39 GMT -5
/\ How heavy is that dinosaur above?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 7:16:14 GMT -5
A Hyaenodon undoubtedly has superior jaws to a polar bear of equal size. However, I would favor a polar bear over Hyaenodon gigas since I do not think H. gigas would be big headed enough to win at parity more often than not. It also seems lacking in terms of extra weapons.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 7:18:52 GMT -5
I wrote in the description. Both the bear and the dinosaur should be at 1 tonne each, and if you compare their torsos (where the majority of mass for both of them is), you will find they are approximately at parity.
It should be noted, however, that if you have any theropod against a carnivoran of the same mass, the former will look about 9-10% bigger. This is because theropods are part air while carnivorans are not - to equal the mass of an animal that does not have air sacs and pneumaticity, they will have a volume advantage.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Sept 3, 2020 7:44:28 GMT -5
Yes; I've seen a comparison picture of a T-rex compared to a similar-weight African elephant. The dinosaur looked much bigger. I believe that the bear would have a difficult time here. The tyrannosaur appears to be an energetic quick-moving predator. Jaws no doubt strong and well-armed. Claws even longer and probably sharper than the bear's claws. My estimation ( pure guess-work ): Yutyrannus 9 out of 10.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 3, 2020 8:04:19 GMT -5
Reply 2. The short faced bear is also bulkier and has heavier bones but the theropod can open its mouth wider and has sharper claws. The short faced bear has jaws of its own that can do some damage and can grapple better but not as well as other bears and even big cats.
Short faced bears are not as heavily built as other bears just as cheetahs are not as heavily built as other big cats.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Sept 3, 2020 8:26:53 GMT -5
Reply 2. The short faced bear is also bulkier and has heavier bones but the theropod can open its mouth wider and has sharper claws. The short faced bear has jaws of its own that can do some damage and can grapple better but not as well as other bears and even big cats. Short faced bears are not as heavily built as other bears just as cheetahs are not as heavily built as other big cats. Arctodus simus has slender "gracile" limbs compared to other bear species. But Arctotherium angustidens seems to have heavy-boned limbs; making him heavier than A. simus.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 3, 2020 8:49:35 GMT -5
The Arctotherium seems more lightly built than both polar bears and brown bears pound to pound still. How good a grappler is an Arxtotherium in your opinion?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 8:57:03 GMT -5
As for my take on this match, let's see how well Yutyrannus stacks up against my criteria to beat a grappler of the same size. Proportionally big head: Check. The skull of Yutyrannus is 90.5 centimeters long for a 1 tonne specimen (compared to 45 cm for a 1 tonne short faced bear), and it's quite deep and robust as you can see from the size comparison. It will undoubtedly be difficult for the bear to control such a massive head, and the dinosaur would also have a very large gape, maximising the extent of what it can get its jaws around. Not to mention as you can see from both the OP size chart and this ( link, credit to Blazze92 for the bear skull) size chart of just the skulls, you'll notice that at weight parity the Yutyrannus can fit the bear's head in its jaws rather easily. Fast moving jaws: Check. Yutyrannus would have numerous ways to quickly get its jaws where they need to be, such as the size of its head, its fast-striking and S-shaped neck, and its powerful leg muscles that would let it lunge forward quickly. Lethal bite: Check. Yutyrannus has a mouth full of razor sharp teeth, some of which are over 12 centimetres long. This will do serious damage to anywhere it bites, and if it can take a chunk of flesh out of one of the bear's arms, that would pretty much disable the grappling. Extra weapons: Check. In addition to its massive head and lethal bite, Yutyrannus has a pair of long and strong forearms with sharp claws. These could both come in handy if it gets grabbed by the bear (to free itself) and if it has landed a bite on the bear (to land the final blow faster). Bonus: If the bear rears up to wrestle with the dinosaur, that would give Yutyrannus an advantage in stability. The reason for this is that bears do not use bipedalism as their primary or sole method of locomotion, but Yutyrannus does. This gives it numerous adaptations for stability on 2 legs that the bear lacks, such as proportionally thicker hindlimb bones (as you can see from the size comparison, Yutyrannus has a much greater femur diameter at parity), a long, heavy tail for counterbalance, and proportionally much larger leg muscles. All of these together would make the Yutyrannus the more stable animal by a good bit if the bear chose to rear up and wrestle. It in fact would not surprise me if Yutyrannus would be able to knock the bear over by charging or shoving it hard enough. All things considered, while it's by no means a slaughter or stomp, I do think Yutyrannus has sufficient weaponry and attributes to win this match.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 10:09:34 GMT -5
Specimens are FMNH PM 24880 and NHMUK 31308, skeletals from the Alaska government's website and GetAwayTrike respectively. Both specimens weigh 1 tonne each.* *For those of you wondering about how this can be parity, consider that this ( link) is what the Megalosaurus looks like in dorsal view, modified from Greg Paul's Ceratosaurus. Many megalosaurids are very deep chested animals for their size, and thus they tend to look a lot bigger than they actually are relative to less deep-chested animals of the same mass.
|
|