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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 4, 2020 10:09:13 GMT -5
/\ Brobear posted that info on one of the threads.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 4, 2020 10:23:11 GMT -5
/\ Brobear posted that info on one of the threads. Most likely just a mistake. We would have to see and analyze that post.
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Post by brobear on Jun 4, 2020 12:24:33 GMT -5
Grizzly Years by Doug peacock. I thought that grizzly predation was not as common here as it had been a decade or more ago. The predatory segment of the population had probably been killed off selectively, and continues to be culled as they were born into it, because predatory bears are bolder and more visible. The Bitter Creek Griz was a holdover from the days when bears could afford to be bold and aggressive. Which served, as it always had, an important ecological function vital to survival of the species.
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Post by brobear on Jun 4, 2020 15:37:16 GMT -5
Predator or Scavenger - page #1 - opening post: Grizzlies are normally not skillful predators, although some more than others. If a grizzly had the hunting skills of a big cat he would then have no need for hibernation. Long ago, grizzlies were from 80 to 90 percent carnivorous. Although they hunted and killed large prey more often than today's grizzlies, most of the meat consumed was carrion or a carcass usurped from a more skillful predator such as a wolf pack or a big cat. Today, because of the total domination of mankind, grizzlies are on average roughly 80 percent vegetarian. I will have to search for the evidence, but This came down from numerous well-known high-quality posters. All brown bears are omnivores. The Pleistocene brown bears of Europe were roughly 80 to 90 percent carnivorous as apposed to the vegetarian cave bears. The Pleistocene American brown bears were ( in theory ) roughly 80 to 90 percent vegetarian as apposed to the highly carnivorous short-faced bears. After the Ice Age ended, the European brown bear began to feed on vegetation more so than their ancestors. The American brown bears ( grizzly ) in the beginning of the Holocene, became more carnivorous ( 80 to 90 percent so ). The grizzlies that the early pioneers discovered were much more carnivorous than those we have with us today. Grizzly Years by Doug peacock.
I thought that grizzly predation was not as common here as it had been a decade or more ago. The predatory segment of the population had probably been killed off selectively, and continues to be culled as they were born into it, because predatory bears are bolder and more visible. The Bitter Creek Griz was a holdover from the days when bears could afford to be bold and aggressive. Which served, as it always had, an important ecological function vital to survival of the species.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 4, 2020 16:14:54 GMT -5
I see, but there is no link to that post.
domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/686/predator-scavenger?page=1
Oh but there is a confusion here, that does not mention the California grizzly as GreenArtos said, it just says "Long ago, grizzlies were from 80 to 90 percent carnivorous." The Pleistocene European brown bears, that sounds more like it, as well the early holocene grizzlies.
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Post by brobear on Jun 4, 2020 17:12:06 GMT -5
I see, but there is no link to that post.
domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/686/predator-scavenger?page=1
Oh but there is a confusion here, that does not mention the California grizzly as GreenArtos said, it just says "Long ago, grizzlies were from 80 to 90 percent carnivorous." The Pleistocene European brown bears, that sounds more like it, as well the early holocene grizzlies.
Kodiak; have patients; there is more. All the hell I was doing was giving you a rundown; that grizzly diet fluctuates with availability and many other factors. And I'm not just talking about freaking California grizzlies.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 4, 2020 17:15:49 GMT -5
I know brobear, i am just saying that the California grizzly (Ursus arctos Californicus), was most likely not 85% carnivorous, he was mostly omnivorous. The really carnivorous brown bears came way before.
Anyways, we have definitely left the topic.
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Post by brobear on Jun 4, 2020 19:21:45 GMT -5
Quote: The really carnivorous brown bears came way before. *No; actually, with the demise of the super-sized big cats, dire wolves, and short-faced bears, the grizzly suddenly found himself as the absolute monarch of N. America ( below the arctic domain of the polar bear ). He was from that day forward - until the invention of the breech-load rifle in 1848 - the unchallenged king of beasts in N. America. He became more of a meat-eater, and grew in size. Consider the historical grizzly when there were huge herds of bison ( estimated from 50 to 100 million ) and an estimated population of grizzlies ( from 50 to 100 thousand ) south of the Canadian border. It is widely believed that these bears frequently followed the bison herds. Of course, they were mostly after wolf kills, bison weak from age etc, and calves. But there would have been interactions between full-grown bison and grizzlies; inevitably. WORLD'S RECORDS GRIZZLY BEAR: Greatest length of skull without lower jaw: 17 4/16 Greatest width of skull: 10 9/16 SCORE: 27 13/16
WORLD'S RECORDS ALASKA BROWN BEAR: Greatest length of skull without lower jaw: 17 15/16 Greatest width of skull: 12 13/16 SCORE: 30 12/16
This record grizzly skull ( inland grizzly ) was not killed by a hunter but was found by a hunter. It was a very rare discovery of a grizzly skull from the days when grizzlies followed the massive bison herds. Less than one inch difference in length from the *record Kodiak bear skull. Roughly two inches narrower in width. Consider that this is a discovery of a random bear - not likely the "biggest bear in the woods" - which would be a huge coincidence - and it is a Kodiak bear sized grizzly. The skull has a narrower shape. The grizzly populations which tend to be the most carnivorous tend to have narrow skulls. ( more polar bear-like ).
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Post by brobear on Jun 4, 2020 19:27:38 GMT -5
Kodiak; where do we have that weight estimation, by the old-school bear expert, who gathered and collected the weights of grizzly boars actually weight in the American West? His estimation; based on bears actually weighed, the weights averaged out at 850 pounds. I remember thinking, "that can't be right" but maybe he was right. I've been searching W.F. for a conversation ( GrizzlyClaws, Wolverine, and I think Tigerluver, about how the grizzly was a more carnivorous bear back before "the slaughter" with rifles. In fact, Doug Peacock mentioned this more than once.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 4, 2020 19:39:13 GMT -5
I am not so sure brobear, i think somewhere in the extinct bears section.
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Post by brobear on Jun 5, 2020 3:11:23 GMT -5
I am not so sure brobear, i think somewhere in the extinct bears section.
This is a problem I have. I read stuff and I learn stuff; but then I cannot find the evidence within our maze of posts and date.
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Post by tom on Jun 5, 2020 11:09:11 GMT -5
Have you tried the search function? Search for a title or search for some terms that only would be in the thread your looking for. I've used it and sometimes you find stuff and sometimes you don't. You may have to narrow it down to a particular area in the forum. Try different search terms, it may be a long shot but.... This would seem the logical place for your info albiet I haven't found anything yet. domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/15/historical-grizzly
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Post by brobear on Jun 5, 2020 12:20:42 GMT -5
Have you tried the search function? Search for a title or search for some terms that only would be in the thread your looking for. I've used it and sometimes you find stuff and sometimes you don't. You may have to narrow it down to a particular area in the forum. Try different search terms, it may be a long shot but.... This would seem the logical place for your info albiet I haven't found anything yet. domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/15/historical-grizzlyIt was within a topic; but not the basis of the topic. Not a devastating problem. I'm sure to find more info which is scattered about.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 5, 2020 14:09:20 GMT -5
Yes brobear, i am also searching, trying to find it.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 5, 2020 15:47:01 GMT -5
Brobear, am not sure this is what you are looking for because there is no weight estimation, but it does talk about the first holocene grizzly bears. Its one of your old posts:
domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/6571/thread
I suspect that the amount of meat in local diets of Pleistocene grizzlies varied widely, primarily as a function of the competition they faced from other carnivores. However, I also suspect that the meat in grizzly bear diets increased substantially during the late Pleistocene-Holocene transitions as most of their competitors (and predators) went extinct, and despite the demise of most species of large herbivores as well.
Why do I think this? As I describe in the page devoted to Early Prehistory, there were a lot of large carnivores around during the Pleistocene, including lions, short-faced bears, dire wolves, and saber-tooth and scimitar-tooth cats. Grizzlies would not have fared well trying to either protect a kill or contest a found carcass when confronting such competitors. In fact, they probably sometimes ended up as prey of the largest of these predators, as seems to have been the case for cave bears in Pleistocene Europe and as continues to be the case for brown bears in areas occupied by Siberian tigers. On the other hand, in the absence of such competitors brown and grizzly bears can be quite carnivorous, as is the case for contemporary populations in meat-rich environments.
But getting back to the Pleistocene. I suspect that competition with and predation by other large carnivores could have been intense enough to limit most grizzlies to marginal areas such as the swath of tundra along the continental icesheet margins (see above). But given such limits, grizzlies were probably locally adaptive in response to variations in competition and the meat resource. Herve Bocherens describes precisely such a situation in Pleistocene Eurasia, where brown bears coexisting with the largely herbivorous cave bears in Europe seem to have been quite carnivorous, while grizzlies hanging around meat-eating giant short-faced bears in Beringia were much more herbivorous.
What might this mean for Pleistocene grizzlies? First, there was probably a lot of meat around in the form of carrion in most areas of the West. Even though the competition for this resource was probably intense, a fast-moving lucky grizzly might have still been able to scavenge of lot. Second, smaller-bodied camels and horses might have been an especially important resource given that competing for meat from a fallen giant such as an elephant was probably particularly hazardous for a grizzly. And, third, the concentration of elephant remains along recently-melted margins of the ice sheet would have likely increasingly contributed to the sustenance of grizzlies in these dynamic rapidly revegetating environments of the East. This would fit my speculations about the distribution of early Holocene grizzly remains in this region, the extent to which grizzlies seemed to track recently melted environments, and the apparent absence of eastern grizzlies after about 9k years ago.
www.allgrizzly.org/pleistocene-holocene-diet
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 6, 2020 4:22:53 GMT -5
Most bears are scavengers or rather usurpers. Bears can also be predators even if their main diet is insects. The video of a giant panda hunting a peacock shows that even the most herbivores bears have some predatory instinct.
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Post by brobear on Dec 11, 2020 16:01:56 GMT -5
The "Big Cat Fanclub" give the excuse: "the caribou had been attacked and injured by wolves." *Why did the wolves not kill the caribou? Where is the blood? Why is this caribou not limping?
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 11, 2020 16:05:57 GMT -5
Maybe he was, i think it might be written somewhere. What this fanclub does not say is that its a great accomplishment for it being a female.
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Post by brobear on Dec 11, 2020 16:18:23 GMT -5
Maybe he was, i think it might be written somewhere. What this fanclub does not say is that its a great accomplishment for it being a female. Could not have been much of an injury. We see no bleeding. We see no limping or struggling to move about. And, I believe that thenormalguy would agree, a wolf pack does not give up easily. If this caribou was able to escape a pack of wolves; she ran pretty darn fast.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 11, 2020 16:24:32 GMT -5
I agree yeah, nothing visible on that video.
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