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Post by brobear on Aug 19, 2020 18:19:54 GMT -5
Two of the largest mammalian land-based predators to ever walk the Earth. If they had lived in the same land at the same time period, which of these mighty beasts would have been the dominant carnivore?
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Post by brobear on Aug 19, 2020 18:28:50 GMT -5
 From Carnivora. This is not Arctotherium angustidens; but the size difference is minimal. |
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Post by brobear on Aug 19, 2020 19:25:23 GMT -5
Artwork by SameerPrehistorica - Arctotherium vs Daeodon.  |
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 19, 2020 23:38:32 GMT -5
Searching for the weight of the Daeodon i only found this:
888 kg (1957 lbs), i think its only 1 specimen.
So it looks like the weights overlaped with Angustidens. From what i read Daeodon was a predator/scavenger and it used its size to displace other predators. His jaws were capable of cracking bones:
www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/species/d/daeodon.html
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2020 2:56:40 GMT -5
www.livescience.com/56797-hell-pigs-entelodonts.html Entelodonts: Facts About Giant Killer 'Pigs' Entelodont is a name given to any member of the extinct scientific family Entelodontidae. These large, primitive animals are also known as hell pigs. However, they are not related to modern pigs; rather, they are closer on the evolutionary tree to hippos and whales. Habitat Entelodonts were among the earliest of the pig-like lineages, known from the early to middle Eocene (c. 50 million years ago), according to Kenneth T. Wilkins, associate dean for sciences at Baylor University, Waco, Texas. Entelodontidae first appeared in Mongolia, then spread across Asia, Europe and North America. They eventually became extinct between 19 million and 16 million years ago, according to Encyclopedia Britannica. In North America, the hell pigs seemed to prefer floodplains as their home of choice. Woodlands where also preferred by hell pigs of many types. Even small hell pigs were quite large. The smallest of the hell pigs grew to around 330 pounds (50 kilograms), while the largest grew to around about 2,000 lbs (900 kg). One of the better-known entelodonts was Archaeotherium, which were common in western North America. These were large animals, several times the size of modern pigs, with the skull reaching near more than 3 feet (1 meter) long. "The dentition suggests they were effective bone-crushers. These surely were fierce, imposing animals . . . hence, the common name 'hell pig,'" said Wilkins. Many hell pigs had heads that were massive when compared to their bodies. Another example is the Dinohyus. Its head was 35 to 45 percent of its total length, according to Encyclopedia Britannica. Large scars, up to 0.8 inches (2 centimeters) deep, found on the remains of hell pigs suggests that they fought with their own kind. Research also suggest that one hell pig would even put another's head in its mouth during a fight, according to BBC Nature. The hell pigs had boney areas on their faces that protected their nose and eyes during these types of attacks. Though it would be easy to assume that such a fierce creature with large tusks and imposing body size were carnivorous predators, the hell pig's teeth say differently. More than likely, they were omnivores, eating plant life as well as meat. The front teeth where large and pointed, perfect for ripping flesh from bone. The back teeth were flat, which is perfect for crushing plant material. Fruits, leaves and seeds, as well as other animals and eggs were probably all part of the hell pig's diet. It may not have even been a killer. Some believe that hell pigs may have been scavengers, letting other animals make the kills. Once the prey was dead, the hell pig may have intimidated the predator and taken its prey, according to National Geographic.
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2020 3:07:40 GMT -5
So, it appears that Daenodon was a pig-like omnivore closely related to the hippopotamus. This big entelodon was roughly equal in weight with the giant S. American short-faced bear ( according to some estimations ). Daenodon was planted on four hoofs. His weapons were his huge and obviously strong jaws armed with bone crushing teeth and tusks.
The giant bear has strong jaws which, even though they might look puny in comparison, were not. Unlike the entelodon, the bear could grapple; meaning he could stand bipedal and use his massive arms to hold or maneuver his adversary. The bear could do damage with both teeth and claws.
Arctotherium angustidens was a bear; therefore a highly intelligent animal. Entelodon intelligence?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2020 6:58:23 GMT -5
In one document from natego, I remember them staying daeodons had stronger bites than modern crocodiles!
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2020 7:15:40 GMT -5
In one document from natego, I remember them staying daeodons had stronger bites than modern crocodiles! The giant short-faced bear would have to successfully avoid those monstrous jaws to defeat this primitive monster. |
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 20, 2020 8:25:13 GMT -5
/\ The deadon does have some deadly jaws there but it does not have the flexible forearms of the ursus. The short faced bears like arctodus has poorer grappling abilities than even big cats so............
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2020 8:49:08 GMT -5
/\ The deadon does have some deadly jaws there but it does not have the flexible forearms of the ursus. The short faced bears like arctodus has poorer grappling abilities than even big cats so............ By forearms I assume you mean arms or forelimbs. The short-faced bear has far superior grappling ability than the hoofed Daeodon.  |
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 20, 2020 9:25:26 GMT -5
As of right now, with everything i read, i will give this fight to Angustidens 6/7 out of 10 times.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 20, 2020 9:26:42 GMT -5
/\ The deadon does have some deadly jaws there but it does not have the flexible forearms of the ursus. The short faced bears like arctodus has poorer grappling abilities than even big cats so............ By forearms I assume you mean arms or forelimbs. The short-faced bear has far superior grappling ability than the hoofed Daeodon. That is correct the deadon also has stiff limbs and I doubt is an agile animal. This is similar to bovines which can run fast but has stiff limbs and are not agile animals. The short faced bear has a far superior grappling ability to the hoofed Daedon as you said but its not as good as brown bears which prey on wild boars. I say the short faced bear has 5 to 6/10 winning chances. |
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2020 9:34:33 GMT -5
As of right now, with everything i read, i will give this fight to Angustidens 6/7 out of 10 times. I'm right on the money with you. Some better than 50%  |
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 20, 2020 10:41:12 GMT -5
All our opinions are close once again. That is great. Now lets wait for the rest to comment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 19:12:50 GMT -5
At overall size parity I would say it's close to a draw. Arctotherium has very large forelimbs and Daeodon very large jaws, however both of them possess a drawback in that regard.
While Daeodon's jaws are very large it's overall an animal that appears to lack a lot of flexibility (which I would consider disadvantageous against a grappler if you use your jaws as your sole weapon). In the meantime according to Sorkin et al 2008, short faced bears have reduced mobility in their forearms compared to other bears, which does not help against an animal with very large jaws like Daeodon.
If I have to pick, however, I'd go with Arctotherium. Because it seems to be more strongly constructed in the limbs which is an advantage for strength and stability.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 2, 2020 19:20:40 GMT -5
Welcome back @grizzlyfan245. That was a good post.
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Post by brobear on Sept 3, 2020 3:33:59 GMT -5
In one document from natego, I remember them staying daeodons had stronger bites than modern crocodiles! I didn't mention this earlier; but good information. I didn't know this. If these two had lived in the same place at the same time; there is little doubt that they would confront each other often over a carcass. I would wager on the bear, but only my pocket change. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entelodont The Entelodontidae were named by Richard Lydekker and assigned to Nonruminantia by Gregory (1910).They were then assigned to Artiodactyla by Lucas et al.(1998) and to Entelodontoidea by Carroll (1988) and Boisserie et al. (2005). While entelodonts have long been classified as members of the Suina, Spaulding et al. have found them to be closer to whales and hippos than to pigs. Cladistic analysis of the position of whales in relation to artiodactyls and mesonychians changes radically depending on whether the giant enigmatic mammal Andrewsarchus is included, and it has been suggested that Andrewsarchus is in fact an entelodont or close relative. *If Andrewsarchus was an Entelodontidae, then Daenodon might not have been the largest member of this group. |
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Post by brobear on Oct 12, 2020 5:17:22 GMT -5
Arctotherium angustidens vs Daeodon is one of those violent bloody fights which is liable to end with either or both being killed. If one is far more often the victor, then in time they would learn. Like the giant short-faced bear, Daeodon was ( IMO ) an omnivore, scavenger, and kleptoparasite. This would put them both in strict competition with each other. Who would you wager on?
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Post by brobear on Oct 19, 2020 3:26:28 GMT -5
This is a classic Jaws vs Arms, Shoulders, and Claws fight of the ages. Bone-Crushing Jaws vs the King of the Grapplers.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 19, 2020 3:38:58 GMT -5
This is a classic Jaws vs Arms, Shoulders, and Claws fight of the ages. Bone-Crushing Jaws vs the King of the Grapplers. I wish there would a video for that analyse their interaction. Will be good to watch. |
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