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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 16:02:12 GMT -5
In a realistic scenario, the lions would likely be intimidated by something this big and powerful and probably leave without a fight and their food is usurped. It would be interesting to see how lions would fair in the same environments as Kodiak bears.
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Post by tom on May 3, 2020 16:02:26 GMT -5
I like this kind of debate because no body is really wrong as we are simply speculating on the outcome. we weigh the strengths of each and apply them on how we think the outcome will come about. I do want to hear from others though so chime in guys.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 3, 2020 16:17:05 GMT -5
We do have a captive account of a large brown bear that killed 3 young but full grown tigers at once in Germany.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 16:22:16 GMT -5
We do have a captive account of a large brown bear that killed 3 young but full grown tigers at once in Germany. Personally I ignore captive fights because they're not wild animals and therefore not as experienced or have the same mentality. They have a certain amount of instinct, but a wild animal is generally different than a captive animal unless taken directly from the wild. Also tigers aren't as organized as lions.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 3, 2020 16:25:20 GMT -5
We do have a captive account of a large brown bear that killed 3 young but full grown tigers at once in Germany. Personally I ignore captive fights because they're not wild animals and therefore not as experienced or have the same mentality. They have a certain amount of instinct, but a wild animal is generally different than a captive animal unless taken directly from the wild. Also tigers aren't as organized as lions. Well, i just named that account here because its perfect for this thread, it was 3 vs 1, and the bear killed all 3, it looks like it was 1 after the other in a row though. But i know we are not allowed to speak of captive fights in this forum.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 16:35:21 GMT -5
In your opinion, which is more of a threat to a lion weighing 420 lbs? A guar weighing 2000 lbs or a 900 lb grizzly bear?
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Post by brobear on May 3, 2020 16:37:33 GMT -5
OK; to begin with; I read someplace ( and I know how this sounds on a face-off topic ) but someplace; that a pride of lions are far inferior to a pack of wolves in their hunting tactics. In other words, lions hunt and fight as a team, but not on a scale of excellence with a wolf. One 1300-pound grizzly vs two 420-pound lions will ( IMHO ) end with two dead lions. The lions will go for the neck area. A boar grizzly's neck is bigger than his skull - massively muscled. This is why an Amur tiger cannot make a quick kill on a boar grizzly. So, ( conjecture ) while one lion is trying to clamp-down on the base of the bear's neck and reach the vertebrate, the other lion ( being foolishly brave lion-fashion ) is going head-on against a beast who can and does maul him; breaking bones and killing him. Now it is one-on-one and the massive Kodiak bear kills the second lion. However - if this scenario does end differently ( less than 50% ) then its one dead bear and one dead lion - a draw... or one dead bear and no lions lost ( an extremely rare ending ) lions win.
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 3, 2020 16:39:35 GMT -5
I've seen how quickly a big and fully determined male coastal brown bear can kill a female coastal brown bear and I doubt it would be much different with a male lion. I would personally favour a fully grown male Kodiak over two male lions in 7/10 instances. We shouldn't forget the fact that Kodiak bears don't only put on more weight as they mature but their percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibres also increases which should make a fully grown male Kodiak bear more explosive than a relatively lean and young individual. An experienced and rather massive old boar would actually be more explosive in his attacks than a young adult male, such irony...
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 16:40:15 GMT -5
OK; to begin with; I read someplace ( and I know how this sounds on a face-off topic ) but someplace; that a pride of lions are far inferior to a pack of wolves in their hunting tactics. In other words, lions hunt and fight as a team, but not on a scale of excellence with a wolf. One 1300-pound grizzly vs two 420-pound lions will ( IMHO ) end with two dead lions. The lions will go for the neck area. A boar grizzly's neck is bigger than his skull - massively muscled. This is why an Amur tiger cannot make a quick kill on a boar grizzly. So, ( conjecture ) while one lion is trying to clamp-down on the base of the bear's neck and reach the vertebrate, the other lion ( being foolishly brave lion-fashion ) is going head-on against a beast who can and does maul him; breaking bones and killing him. Now it is one-on-one and the massive Kodiak bear kills the second lion. However - if this scenario does end differently ( less than 50% ) then its one dead bear and one dead lion - a draw... or one dead bear and no lions lost ( an extremely rare ending ) lions win. That's a scenario of two lions attacking the bear at once which is why I feel the lion's best bet is to use hit and run to wear the bear down.
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Post by brobear on May 3, 2020 16:46:37 GMT -5
Quote: " their percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibres also increases which should make a fully grown male Kodiak bear more explosive"... *I have never understood this twitch muscle fibres... whatever... syfy crap. Bears have bigger bones and bigger muscles. I have known guys with twitches... ?
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 3, 2020 16:50:28 GMT -5
brobearI also don't really get the muscle fibre thing but I know that fast-twitch muscle fibres are more common in older/prime bears than in young bears; they should be able to exert more force over a shorter amount of time but they will also fatigue faster. That's of course not related to the max. strength output as a young bear still managed to pull/push proportionately more weight than an older bear in the study I shared, however, it should be noted that a fully grown bear would actually be more explosive/faster than a young adult.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 16:52:20 GMT -5
brobear I also don't really get the muscle fibre thing but I know that fast-twitch muscle fibres are more common in older/prime bears than in young bears; they should be able to exert more force over a shorter amount of time but they will also fatigue faster. That's of course not related to the max. strength output as a young bear still managed to pull/push proportionately more weight than an older bear in the study I shared, however, it should be noted that a fully grown bear would actually be more explosive/faster than a young adult. Ahhh, so kinda like a full grown man (25-30) compared to a teenager to a 18-19 year old?
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 3, 2020 16:54:40 GMT -5
malikc6 Yeah right, however, the weight of an extremely heavy bear might even things out; it's on a proportional basis. A 10yo Ussuri brown bear weighing ~600lbs should theoretically be more explosive/faster than a 5yo coastal brown bear weighing ~600lbs given all things being equal.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 3, 2020 17:02:00 GMT -5
Ok so i see that all you guys think 1 single kodiak bear would defeat 2 male lions at once. I dont agree, that does not sound like reality to me. Lions are being seriously underestimated.
How about 1 kodiak vs 3 lions at once?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 17:02:23 GMT -5
For those that believe the bear would win more often than not, would this be different if I increased the lions weight up to 500 lbs instead of 420?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 17:04:04 GMT -5
Ok so i see that all you guys think 1 single kodiak bear would defeat 2 male lions at once. I dont agree.
How about 1 kodiak vs 3 lions at once? Three lions could do it as I've stated. I give 2 lions a 50/50 if they fought correctly by means of hit and run. 3 is enough, although I remember back on yuku of some guy that thought that a Kodiak bear could kill 5 lions all at once...
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 3, 2020 17:04:08 GMT -5
@king Kodiak
Three lions should take it imo; that would definitely turn the tables.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 17:17:44 GMT -5
Ok so i see that all you guys think 1 single kodiak bear would defeat 2 male lions at once. I dont agree, that does not sound like reality to me. Lions are being seriously underestimated.
How about 1 kodiak vs 3 lions at once? Another thing that I wanted to say is that the reason some believe that the bear would win more often than not is because one of the lions would have to manage to get the bear off its balance and onto the ground. A bear of this size could easily support a 420 lb animal on its back while fighting the other and take little damage due to their tough hide.
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Post by brobear on May 3, 2020 17:29:14 GMT -5
Three lions would kill the bear. Yes! But with the loss of either one or two lions. Please read post #29. There is a reason that an Amur tiger ( bigger and with longer canines ) cannot make a quick kill of a grizzly boar. It takes time to kill a grizzly. Meanwhile, he is not standing still like a buffalo while being strangled or suffocated. There is no doubt that at least one of the three lions will be killed; very possibly two. One dead bear / one dead lion - a draw. One dead bear / two dead lions - bear wins on points. *This is why, if grizzlies lived in S. Africa, lions might learn to ambush only juveniles or she-bears.
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Post by brobear on May 3, 2020 17:32:44 GMT -5
For those that believe the bear would win more often than not, would this be different if I increased the lions weight up to 500 lbs instead of 420? 1300 pounds and 420 pounds is already well above average for both.
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