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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 27, 2020 8:32:58 GMT -5
In page 1 of this thread i talked about the lion winning at a weight parity fight. Yes, if the brown bear is little like a 400 lb brown bear vs a 400 lb lion, i see the lion winning more often than not. But if its a large brown bear, like a 600 lb brown bear vs a 600 lb lion, than i see the bear winning at least 6/10 times.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 27, 2020 10:50:29 GMT -5
/\ That is because most brown bears at 400 pounds are either female or sub adult. Male barren ground grizzlies at 400 pounds might have a slight advantage over a big cat at similar weight. Overall I agree with you.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 27, 2020 12:32:12 GMT -5
/\ That is because most brown bears at 400 pounds are either female or sub adult. Male barren ground grizzlies at 400 pounds might have a slight advantage over a big cat at similar weight. Overall I agree with you. Yeah, what i meant is that if we have a weight parity fight between a 400 lb Barren ground grizzly (which is an adult male) vs a 400 lb lion, i would still favour the lion to win at least 6/10 times. But if we take that same grizzly and that same lion, now both at 600 lbs, i would favour the grizzly at least 6/10 times. Things change a little when the grizzly is larger, even at a weight parity fight.
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Post by tom on Jul 27, 2020 18:24:04 GMT -5
In page 1 of this thread i talked about the lion winning at a weight parity fight. Yes, if the brown bear is little like a 400 lb brown bear vs a 400 lb lion, i see the lion winning more often than not. But if its a large brown bear, like a 600 lb brown bear vs a 600 lb lion, than i see the bear winning at least 6/10 times. You may be right. For me a fight such as this is as much or even more about the individuals involved than weight aspect. Naturally if a Lion is outweighed by more than a couple hundred pounds it makes his job even more daunting. I still feel it's the individual and how accomplished a fighter they are or how aggressive they can be to project a fierce adversary to their opponent. You could draw some of these same conclusions with humans. Intimidation.... For instance if one of the individuals is larger but much more passive then the smaller much more aggressive individual that could make the difference. An example could be a Wolverine and a Bear. Wolverine is highly aggressive and willing to stand his ground even against a much larger opponent. He projects aggression and it would take a Bear who is also highly aggressive to want to deal with this snarling, mean somFemale Dog of a Wolverine. In the case of the Lion vs Bear, if both were at weight parity and both fighters and neither backing down from a fight, I.... would hate to wager on who would win. Lion gets the upper hand and goes for the throat and is successful, he could simply hold on till the bear suffocates, end of story. The Bear on the other hand could deliver a knock out punch to the Lions head rendering him dazed he could just as easily end it. IMO, when we get into larger Bears of 650 plus pounds or even more 800+ pounds, now we have a serious size and strength discrepancy that the Lion will have a hard time overcoming.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 27, 2020 20:16:37 GMT -5
Yeah, a brown bear with a 200 + lb weight advantage (i always use a 200 + lb weight advantage because i think less than that is not that much of a factor) would defeat a lion 7/8 out of 10 times, that is my opinion because i know how good of a fighter and how ferocious prime male lions are. Some bear fans might think is even more for the bear, like 9/10. But the most important thing is that we all agree the bear would win more often than not.
Now at weight parity, that is a damn good fight. Some favour the bear, some favour the lion. A lion grabbing the throat is much more likely on a 400 lb bear than to a 600 lb bear. The larger the bear, the stronger it is with more pushing strength, the neck would have more fat and thick fur also. So my opinion is that a 400 lb lion vs a 400 lb adult male bear, i will give it to the lion 6/10 times. But a weight parity fight now both at 600 lbs, the bear takes it 6/10 times.
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Post by brobear on Aug 4, 2020 15:39:26 GMT -5
*Same-Size-Predators; this is what makes lion vs tiger or either big cat vs grizzly the top animal face-off topics in every animal face-off forum. We all know that tigers have a slight weight advantage over lions ( on average ). Never-the-less, it takes a highly skilled zoologist to distinguish a lion carcass from a tiger carcass with no hide. The size difference is minimal. The grizzly too is ( on average ) a same-size-predator to lions and tigers. You allow a lion or a tiger to stand bipedal against a fence, and his height is pretty much on par with a typical grizzly. But the bear will have roughly a 200-pound weight advantage due to his broader build and more muscle. At weight parity, even with a smaller grizzly, I would give the bear easily a 50-50 against either a lion or a tiger. In fact, perhaps 6 out of 10. But as same-size-predators, equal in bipedal height or head-and-body length, I would wager on the bear 19 out of 20.
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Post by brobear on Aug 17, 2020 5:31:13 GMT -5
It has occurred to me a similarity between the lion and the grizzly. Among the big cats, the lion is the fighter - the mauler and the brawler. Within a pride of lions, it is the lionesses who do the vast majority of the hunting. In fact, a lion's mane is too conspicuous for an ambush predator - like trying to be stealthy while holding up a red flag. For this reason, the male lion only helps in a hunt for big prey animals such as Cape buffalo. He, the lion, is not an ambush predator like his mates. Both lions and brown bears evolved in open country, where trees are sparse or scattered. Those beasts of open land have few places to hide. You either outrun or outfight your enemies. So, both the lion and the brown bear evolved into fighters. The modern lion ( Panthera leo ) is a native to a harsh dry and usually a very hot environment. The brown bear is a native to what is often an extremely cold environment. Too very different extremes which helped to develop two very different animals; each considered by most wild animal enthusiasts as the fighter of his family. The only challenger to the brown bear's crown is the even bigger polar bear. The only challenger to the lion's crown is the even bigger tiger. But these topics are mute.
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 17, 2020 7:05:36 GMT -5
I definitely agree that the lion is the cat that fights face to face the most, especially when fighting to defend or take over a pride. But when hunting, we still have to remember that he is an ambush predator. Here is a very clear example. Large male lion with a huge mane attacking a buffalo calf by ambush:
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Post by brobear on Aug 17, 2020 8:09:21 GMT -5
The lion is as much ambush predator as any other member of the cat family - basic cat behavior. However, a lone lion will fail much more often in ambush attempts than other big cats due to that highly visible mane. A lone lion must be bold, showing signs of real courage when hunting. From Reply #76 at Interesting Data involving big cats: The other type of pride-based hunting is a little more straightforward. In these cases, we’re talking about adult Cape Buffalo, giraffes, possibly hippos, and even elephants, in certain areas of Africa. This is where the big guns are needed… and I mean the big, heavy, maned lions. Yes, they get involved as well. They don’t always laze around. Getting an occasional “big kill” is important, and the males have no problem with taking part. In this type of hunt, there is no stealthy sneaking around in the grass. It’s all up front. This type of whole-pride hunt more closely resembles the way a wolf pack might hunt. It’s organized. It starts with all the lionesses taking positions on the flanks. They maneuver in a coordinated way to try to separate the target; the big target. If things work out right, that's when the lion comes into play. The massive Cape Buffalo and the lion look at each other eye-to-eye with the full knowledge that something is about to go down. This is when it comes down to brute strength and bravery, which neither prey, nor predator, are lacking. If the prey happens to get help from the rest of its herd, they usually win. If not… it’s the lions and lionesses who come out on top. But it’s the fighting spirit, aggressiveness, size and weight of the lion that makes the difference here. Too big for lionesses to approach on their own. So, having said that, we can’t really say that the lion is built only for fighting other lions. They certainly can and do hunt.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 17, 2020 8:58:11 GMT -5
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 17, 2020 9:06:24 GMT -5
Reply #40, this is the description from inside the link:
cave bear Ursus spelaeus does battle with a Eurasian cave lion Panthera leo spelaea, two of Pleistocene Europes greatest carnivores(although the cave bear was mostly vegetarian).
That bear looks very small though, like a female or even a subadult.
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Post by brobear on Aug 17, 2020 9:49:51 GMT -5
Reply #40, this is the description from inside the link:
cave bear Ursus spelaeus does battle with a Eurasian cave lion Panthera leo spelaea, two of Pleistocene Europes greatest carnivores(although the cave bear was mostly vegetarian).
That bear looks very small though, like a female or even a subadult. From the "detective work" on the fossil remains; the lions were probably looking for bear cubs and/or subadult bears. When 'Mama bear' woke up, then there was a terrible fight which might go either way. Just as in the R.F.E., no remains found that would suggest a clash between a cave lion and a full-grown male cave bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 17, 2020 10:56:54 GMT -5
Thats correct, mostly bear cubs:
... It is known than cave lions had individual dietary preferences. For instance, in some regions of Western Europe they specialized on suckling cave bears cubs and reindeer (Bocherens et al., 2011;Diedrich, 2011d); and the dietary habits of the cave lions of Eastern Beringia were reconstructed (Fox-Dobbs et al., 2008).
Yeah....
"Lions were possibly also killed in battles with cave bears during predation on hibernating bears in winter times"
"Within such lion–cave bear and even lion–hyena conflicts in the caves lions must have been killed sometimes, explaining mainly the skeleton occurrences in different European caves."
Yes, there is some evidence of "large bears" which most likely were adult males, fighting and killing male lions (which where the ones to enter the caves to hunt):
.. During such fights, also lions lost their battles, especially with large bears, but their carcasses were mostly not scavenged by herbivorous cave bear and left inside the caves. This behaviour might be interpreted as the main reason for the accumulation of lion's bones, which was not typical cave dweller as well (Diedrich, 2011a(Diedrich, ,b, 2012(Diedrich, , 2014(Diedrich, , 2017. The Sudeten lion was very large and robust animal, with the weight of males between 320 and 420 kg, and the weight of females 150-220 kg (Marciszak et al., 2019a). ...
FULL STUDY HERE:
www.researchgate.net/publication/233230329_The_largest_European_lion_Panthera_leo_spelaea_Goldfuss_1810_population_from_the_Zoolithen_Cave_Germany_specialised_cave_bear_predators_of_Europe
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Post by brobear on Aug 21, 2020 9:41:25 GMT -5
We have no records of lion interactions with brown bears in the wild. Therefore, we can only speculate. What makes lion vs brown bear or tiger vs brown bear so interesting is the fact that these three animals are all basically "same size predators". By this I mean when measured according to body-length or by bipedal height, all three are on average relatively the same ( differences in individuals of course ). However; when compared according to weight and girth, the bear dominates. When comparing a lion or a tiger with polar bears; we have no real contest. The polar bear is far more massive. Other bear species are simply too small.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 22, 2020 8:20:04 GMT -5
The only extant predator than can beat a male polar bear will be a male kodiak bear. Anyway, I am interested in how an Atlas bear interaction with African lions would be like.
Two lions are able to kill most Atlas bears but I believe a really large male will be approached with caution even by a small coalition as none would want to risk death.
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 22, 2020 10:48:48 GMT -5
Me too. And Atlas bear/lions interactions is the least of the interactions that we know about. Not a single piece of information has been found on this. There is more info on cave bear/cave lion interactions even though that happened way before. There is even more info on the short faced bear than the Atlas bear.
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Post by brobear on Aug 22, 2020 13:09:05 GMT -5
Atlas bear; not enough reliable information even for a conversation. The few remaining bears, by the time a biologist ever took notice of them, were smaller than the average American black bear. But, they might have been larger bears when more numerous; especially before the Romans began capturing them. More easily debatable is the Asiatic lion vs Syrian brown bear. But here again, there are no existing recorded events of their interactions.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2020 10:52:08 GMT -5
Lion or tiger vs bear at parity ( same weight) puts the bear at a disadvantage in my opinion- A 400 lb big cat is pretty much developed, not gonna get much bigger on average, where a bear has a ways to go yet... To me it’s like a fully grown 30 yr old man who weighs 220 fighting someone who weighs 220 but is only 16 yrs old The “old man” strength, fully developed individual , the experience / maturity level will be a big advantage in this situation. Fast forward a few years and thing’s can change a lot 😊
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 25, 2020 11:01:08 GMT -5
Yeah, most times that would be the case as a 400 lb brown bear of the largest subspecies, like kodiak, Peninsular, Kamchatka, European, Ussuri, would be a female or a subadult male. But a Barren ground grizzly at 400 lbs is a fully grown adult male, so that bear would not be at a disadvantage. Also, we can match up a very large lion of 600 lbs with an Ussuri brown bear. What am saying is that an adult male vs an adult male fight at weight parity is possible, especially with the smaller grizzly bear populations or subspecies, like the Barren ground grizzly, or other North american populations, or the Syrian brown bear for example.
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Post by brobear on Aug 25, 2020 11:20:11 GMT -5
From theundertaker45 on the topic of Barren Ground Grizzly: The average weight has been updated by me (initial comment on the weights of barren ground grizzlies) as I have managed to find a more extensive study on the bears inhabiting the Northern Yukon and the Northwest of Alaska; the new average weight is 179.8kg (396.4lbs) for males with an age of 5 years or higher. Average Panthera leo (species, extant, concluded out of the two present subspecies) - 371.3 pounds for males and 262.6 pounds for females (n=282 and n=267) *Anytime we discuss a weight-parity face-off ( King Kodiak knows how much I adore this topic ) we must remember that all adversaries are full-grown adults. Edit and add: It seems we all have different perspectives of this ( not a bad thing ). My opinion: at weight-parity brown bear vs tiger ( 50-50 ) brown bear vs lion ( 50-50 ).
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