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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 24, 2020 17:32:35 GMT -5
Well, we have here 2 very different scenarios. One scenario is in the wild, where they dont meet, but if they did, most Asiatic black bears would run up a tree as soon as they see a single lion, (same as they do with tigers), not to mention several lions.
The other scenario would be a pure face to face fight, one vs one, in captivity, locked in a cage, in a fight to death. In this scenario my stance is 50% for reasons stated above.
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Post by brobear on Mar 25, 2020 0:12:51 GMT -5
Forget the cage fight. The question is, can an Asiatic black bear boar displace a lone Asiatic lion from his kill? I have to agree that these two are so evenly matched that it would depend on the individual animals - size, personality, experience, and aggression level. Shall we call this a 50-50?
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 25, 2020 5:15:32 GMT -5
This is a very simple question to answer. Only the Himalayan black bear ( Ursus thibetanus laniger) would same way it has done to large male tigers. None of the other Asiatic black bear subspecies would in my opinion.
Definitely yes, for me its 50%. (Weight parity).
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 25, 2020 6:30:57 GMT -5
My stance is: 65/35 in favour of the lion at average weights, 55/45-60/40 in favour of the bear at parity and 65/35-70/30 in favour of the bear at max. weights.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 25, 2020 7:23:08 GMT -5
My stance is: 65/35 in favour of the lion at average weights, 55/45-60/40 in favour of the bear at parity and 65/35-70/30 in favour of the bear at max. weights. We basically agree on all. At average i have it 6/10 for the lion, parity i have it at 50%, and max is for the bear at 6/10. We all know weight is very important, for me weight is 50% of the fight among other advantages/disadvantages.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 25, 2020 15:03:44 GMT -5
Male sloth bears from Nepal average ~250lbs whereas Asian lions from the Gir forest average ~360lbs. The Asian lions has over 100lbs on the sloth bear at average weights which is enough for me to consider it a 75/25 in favour of the lion at average weights. At max weights they are basically similar in weight. Sloth Bears are the most underrated great bears imo, they outclass all other bears in proportional bone density and are walking tanks literally. I would personally give the sloth bear the edge over the Asian lion in a parity matchup/at max. weights. I'll vote for the lion as an average stipulation would be the most common and he has a decent size advantage that can't be overlooked.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 3:15:27 GMT -5
I voted lion. In a fight to the death, considering his size advantage. However, would a lion fight a bear face-to-face? There is no place on modern earth where a lion lives among bears or any other mammalian predator remotely close to his own size. Therefore, we cannot know for certain that a lion would react any differently from a tiger or a leopard when dealing with a bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 5:04:23 GMT -5
I voted lion. In a fight to the death, considering his size advantage. However, would a lion fight a bear face-to-face? There is no place on modern earth where a lion lives among bears or any other mammalian predator remotely close to his own size. Therefore, we cannot know for certain that a lion would react any differently from a tiger or a leopard when dealing with a bear. As mentioned here many times, a lion is more "dog-like" than "cat-like" when it comes to bravery. All the accounts and videos show this. An Asiatic lion would damn sure fight a sloth bear. At weight parity, my opinion is the lion wins 6/7 out of 10.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 5:09:48 GMT -5
I voted lion. In a fight to the death, considering his size advantage. However, would a lion fight a bear face-to-face? There is no place on modern earth where a lion lives among bears or any other mammalian predator remotely close to his own size. Therefore, we cannot know for certain that a lion would react any differently from a tiger or a leopard when dealing with a bear. As mentioned here many times, a lion is more "dog-like" than "cat-like" when it comes to bravery. All the accounts and videos show this. An Asiatic lion would damn sure fight a sloth bear. At weight parity, my opinion is the lion wins 6/7 out of 10.In your opinion; the lion would fight the sloth bear face-to-face. As mentioned, there are neither bears nor any other large ( 200+ pound ) predators living where lions dwell. I'm not saying you're wrong; simply that its all guesswork.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 5:21:03 GMT -5
Its just the nature of the lion. Lions are known for bravery and courage. A same size predator would be no problem for a lion.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 5:30:56 GMT -5
Its just the nature of the lion. Lions are known for bravery and courage. A same size predator would be no problem for a lion. Yeah; they have that reputation. This lion doesn't want to fight. He is looking for an escape. A sloth bear would stand a neaerly zero chance of killing a lion. Only a big 400+ pound boar Asiatic black bear might defeat a lion. But in the wild, the lion just might not stick around long enough to kill a bear.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 6:15:55 GMT -5
I still question; if this is not a repulsive cage fight, and if the lone lion is defending a carcass, Would this lion be willing to go head-to-head against a mature male Asiatic black bear? Or, would the lion relinquish his kill over to the bear? In Africa, the largest mammalian predator that a lion must deal with is the queen spotted hyena roughly one-third the weight of a lion. In India ( Gir Forest ) the leopard is second in size to the lion and weighs less than a spotted hyena. A lion may appear very brave as it ambushes large herbivores. Tigers do this as well. Or maybe a lion appears very brave inside of a cage ( where there is no escape ). Any explanations?
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 6:28:29 GMT -5
Oh commonnnnmm brobear, how many times will you ask the same thing? Lmao. Its a freaking lion for gods sake, you think a ferocious hungry lion would not defend its food from an Asiatic black bear?
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 6:35:54 GMT -5
Oh commonnnnmm brobear, how many times will you ask the same thing? Lmao. Its a freaking lion for gods sake, you think a ferocious hungry lion would not defend its food from an Asiatic black bear?
What evidence do we really have that a lion is exempt from basic cat behavior? Yes, I know how bloody ferocious they can be in their gang-warfares. But that is lion-on-lion. Most animals are braver when fighting with their own kind than with other species. But we truthfully have no real hard evidence to suggest that a lion would act any differently with a bear than does the cougar, the leopard, or the tiger. All we really have to go on is his "reputation".
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 26, 2020 6:54:09 GMT -5
The wilderness is a lifetime survival contest, severe injury means certain death. The Asian lion is a hypercarnivore, injury could lead to the inability to hunt and to lose his status within his coalition, an Asian lion definitely has much more to lose than an Asian black bear who would still be able to feast on berries/nuts, even with severe injury. Although the Asian lion would almost certainly win most hypothetical fight to the deaths at average weights I am not so sure regarding carcasses. Felids are probably the most cautious carnivores on earth; even though the African lion might most likely be the bravest as he is the only social big cat, I don't think that this is the case with the male Asian lions as they have to do the hunting all by themselves and an injured alpha male could lose his rank and die a painful and lonesome death. I personally think that the Asian lion would most certainly call his brothers the moment he realizes that the black bear isn't in the mood to play. As soon as the other lions arrive the bear will have to start running, otherwise he would be killed fairly easily.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 6:56:29 GMT -5
Yeah, but even though lions mostly fight in prides, there are videos and accounts of them fighting alone also. Its just my own opinion that a lone Asiatic lion would defend a carcass against an Asiatic black bear.
Another very important thing to consider though, the only subspecies that is brave enough to displace tigers is the Himalayan black bear (Ursus thibetanus laniger), all the other Asiatic black bear subspecies are known to run up a tree when they see a tiger. Zero accounts of them even attacking a tiger. Laniger is the only one who would even attempt it with a lion.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 7:01:24 GMT -5
Yeah, but even though lions mostly fight in prides, there are videos and accounts of them fighting alone also. Its just my own opinion that a lone Asiatic lion would defend a carcass against an Asiatic black bear.
Another very important thing to consider though, the only subspecies that is brave enough to displace tigers is the Himalayan black bear (Ursus thibetanus laniger), all the other Asiatic black bear subspecies are known to run up a tree when they see a tiger. Zero accounts of them even attacking a tiger. Laniger is the only one. Ussuri black bears are also known to displace tigers; though not a common habit I'm sure. Also, I feel certain that the Himalayan black bear would scamper up a tree if he were to detect a tiger stalking him. Where there is no carcass to be had, no reward for a possible fight; then why fight?
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 7:07:49 GMT -5
Show me just one account or any authority stating this? Never heard of any displacements by the Ussuri black bears on Amur tigers.
Nope. #1: the Himalayan black bear fears nothing. And #2: there is a reason why there are zero accounts of tigers killint an adult male Himalayan black bear. Even Peter just said it the other day.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 7:14:40 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 7:25:23 GMT -5
Show me just one account or any authority stating this? Never heard of any displacements by the Ussuri black bears on Amur tigers.
Nope. #1: the Himalayan black bear fears nothing. And #2: there is a reason why there are zero accounts of tigers killint an adult male Himalayan black bear. Even Peter just said it the other day.
I never said that the Himalayan black bear fears the tiger. I stated that this bear, like all bears, is an intelligent animal and would not risk a fight with a tiger simply to prove his courage. There is a huge difference between displacing a tiger for a carcass which could possibly feed the bear for two or three days, and simply swaggering before a tiger saying, "attack me if you dare".
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