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Post by brobear on Nov 10, 2019 7:53:29 GMT -5
I would wager on the bear. Face-to-face is way different from an ambush beginning in a fight. I have read of staged fights between black bears and big cats with the ( BIG ) black bears always winning. www.askabiologist.org.uk/answers/viewtopic.php?id=546 I'm sorry to say that bears and lions have been pitted against one another on many, many occasions, always for human 'sport'. When brown/grizzly bears are involved, they always win hands-down: in fact, in historical pitted fights fought in Canada, lions were reputed to last less than 5 mins against adult bears. Even small bears like sloth bears can hold their own against adult lions, with the lion coming off much worse.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 10, 2019 8:02:12 GMT -5
Of course, here we are talking about a face to face fight, no ambush. Unlike tigers, Lions are great face to face fighters, more ferocious, and it will likely fight to the death. This is an asiatic black bear (more aggressive than Americanus), but a black bear nontheless. At similar weights, i cant see it more than 50%.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 10, 2019 8:10:18 GMT -5
"in fact, in historical pitted fights fought in Canada, lions were reputed to last less than 5 mins against adult bears"
We have all the bears kill/defeat lions accounts on record, and i have never seen any pitted fights in Canada. I will have to do some research on that.
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Post by brobear on Nov 10, 2019 15:20:11 GMT -5
Finding records of those Canadian staged fights would be an interesting discovery.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 10, 2019 16:04:06 GMT -5
Finding records of those Canadian staged fights would be an interesting discovery. I am on it.
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Post by BruteStrength on Nov 17, 2019 0:25:09 GMT -5
Well on wiki it says that asiatic black bears can get up to 440 pounds for adult males so I have to give the bear the slight edge. Perhaps 50/50?
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Post by brobear on Nov 17, 2019 2:31:58 GMT -5
Well on it says that asiatic black bears can get up to 440 pounds for adult males so I have to give the bear the slight edge. Perhaps 50/50? I would wager on the stronger bear. But I would not bet the farm. Asiatic black bears can be quite aggressive. 60-40 in favor of the bear.
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Post by BruteStrength on Nov 17, 2019 3:01:16 GMT -5
Well on it says that asiatic black bears can get up to 440 pounds for adult males so I have to give the bear the slight edge. Perhaps 50/50? I would wager on the stronger bear. But I would not bet the farm. Asiatic black bears can be quite aggressive. 60-40 in favor of the bear. If this was a brown bear at the same weight I would favor the brown bear because brown bears are much stronger than black bears at the same weight so I will say 50/50 on this one because Im not too sure.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 23, 2020 20:20:30 GMT -5
So, the Asiatic black bear has 21.75% robusticity in their front limbs, the lion has 18.82%, (it does not specify which subspecie it is, should not be much different though between African and Asiatic).
So this detail just reinforces more my 50% stance on this match up at same weight. More robust front limbs is very important.
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Post by brobear on Mar 24, 2020 4:48:09 GMT -5
www.girbirdinglodge.com/mammalsofgir/ MAMMALS OF GIR FOREST Asiatic Lion Leopard Jungle Cat Desert Cat Rusty-Spotted Cat Common Palm Civet Small Indian Civet Sambar Deer Spotted Deer Blue Bull Chousingha (the world’s only four-horned antelope) Chinkara (Indian gazelle) Wild Boar Jackal Striped Hyena Indian Fox Hanuman Langur Indian Porcupine Black-naped Indian Hare Indian Grey Mongoose Common Mongoose Small Indian Mongoose Ruddy Mongoose Indian Pangolin Grey Musk Shrew Ratel or Honey Badger Pale Hedgehog Flying Fox Short-Nosed Fruit Bat Bearded Sheathtailed Bat Five-striped Palm Squirrel Indian Gerbil Field Mouse Common House Rat Kutch Rock Rat Rock Rat Bandicoot Rat Indian Mole Rat ( no tigers and no bears )
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Mar 24, 2020 5:18:05 GMT -5
I don’t think there is any record of Asiatic black bears and Asiatic lions crossing paths.
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Post by brobear on Mar 24, 2020 5:22:35 GMT -5
I don’t think there is any record of Asiatic black bears and Asiatic lions crossing paths. Nothing on record of lion and bear interactions period. Its like all the Asiatic lions were placed in a location carefully chosen where they will be safe from tigers and bears.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 24, 2020 6:17:12 GMT -5
So we are using a 420lbs Asian lion and a 440lbs Asian black bear here which means that the bear will have a slight weight advantage. Taking the data on bone density and forelimb dexterity/flexibility into account, I am sure that the slightly larger bear would eventually get the upper hand in a grapple and could pin the lion to the ground more often than vice versa. The lion's only chance would be that he makes use of his impeccable agility/speed paired with his high bite force and lands a vital hit early on, however, I don't think that would be a regular occurence with an animal as durable and robust as a large Asian black bear. It won't be an easy fight for the bear ofc, I fully admit that and would never claim that an Asian black bear would easily win against a lion at parity but I see the lion getting worn out, subdued and killed after a grueling battle in at least 60 out of 100 hypothetical instances. If we are assuming a conflict over a carcass, the bear will almost always prevail for sure as a lion is dependent on being able to hunt and won't risk injuries; as soon as he realizes that the bear wants this carcass and is willing to put up a good fight he would either flee or call his brothers in order to help him. That's my personal take on it.
However, I have to say that the bear will likely be decently smaller than the lion at average weights. Mature male Asian lions range from 143-190kg whereas mature male Asian black bears range from 60-200kg; median weights would be ~367lbs (166.5kg) for the lion and 287lbs (130kg) for the bear. The general range would be 97-190kg (smallest female - largest male) for the lion (median of 317lbs (143.5kg)) and 40-200kg for the bear (median of 265lbs (120kg)); under normal circumstances an average male Asian lion will definitely be larger than an average male Asian black bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 24, 2020 7:37:49 GMT -5
Correct, 420 lbs would be the normal max weight of the Asiatic lion. 440 lbs would be the normal max weight of the Asiatic black bear. At same weight, and even at max weights with the bear having a slight 20 lb weight advantage, i have this fight at 50%. The Asiatic lion has a less fuller mane than the African lion, but we know lions fight real good head on. The Asiatic black bear is very aggressive, especially the Himalayan black bear subspecies, and as we have seen, has more robust front limbs than the lion. Its a toss up, 50%, in my opinion.
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Post by brobear on Mar 24, 2020 8:13:09 GMT -5
So, considering a typical male Asiatic lion vs a typical Asiatic black bear; the lion has a weight advantage of roughly 80 pounds. Not a tiny difference but no game-changer either. Speaking of manes, I disagree to a lion's mane acting as a shield against teeth and claws to any great degree. Consider also this black bear has a rather thick "mane" of his own. Average specimen vs average specimen, one-on-one, I would give them a 50-50 if its a fight to the death. But, I agree with 'taker that the lion would eventually leave the fight and the bear would take to carcass. Should more lions show up, that would change everything.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 24, 2020 8:39:55 GMT -5
Bengal tigers have adapted a tactic of hunting in groups in order to minimize the risk of injury; I think there is a video on Youtube where a group of 3 tigers take down an Asian black bear/sloth bear. It would most likely also be the case here; as male Asian lions live in coalitions of about three individuals they would certainly gang up and regularly prey upon Asian black bears, that's the benefit of being a social animal. I would give the edge to the bear at parity and at max. weights, however, at average weights the lion has a formidable weight advantage that can't be overlooked; I'd be inclined to favour the average Asian lion over the average Asian black bear.
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Post by tom on Mar 24, 2020 9:03:14 GMT -5
So we are using a 420lbs Asian lion and a 440lbs Asian black bear here which means that the bear will have a slight weight advantage. Taking the data on bone density and forelimb dexterity/flexibility into account, I am sure that the slightly larger bear would eventually get the upper hand in a grapple and could pin the lion to the ground more often than vice versa. The lion's only chance would be that he makes use of his impeccable agility/speed paired with his high bite force and lands a vital hit early on, however, I don't think that would be a regular occurence with an animal as durable and robust as a large Asian black bear. It won't be an easy fight for the bear ofc, I fully admit that and would never claim that an Asian black bear would easily win against a lion at parity but I see the lion getting worn out, subdued and killed after a grueling battle in at least 60 out of 100 hypothetical instances. If we are assuming a conflict over a carcass, the bear will almost always prevail for sure as a lion is dependent on being able to hunt and won't risk injuries; as soon as he realizes that the bear wants this carcass and is willing to put up a good fight he would either flee or call his brothers in order to help him. That's my personal take on it. However, I have to say that the bear will likely be decently smaller than the lion at average weights. Mature male Asian lions range from 143-190kg whereas mature male Asian black bears range from 60-200kg; median weights would be ~367lbs (166.5kg) for the lion and 287lbs (130kg) for the bear. The general range would be 97-190kg (smallest female - largest male) for the lion (median of 317lbs (143.5kg)) and 40-200kg for the bear (median of 265lbs (120kg)); under normal circumstances an average male Asian lion will definitely be larger than an average male Asian black bear. IMO, at average weight this swings the advantage the other way to the Lion.
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Post by tom on Mar 24, 2020 9:12:13 GMT -5
So, considering a typical male Asiatic lion vs a typical Asiatic black bear; the lion has a weight advantage of roughly 80 pounds. Not a tiny difference but no game-changer either. Speaking of manes, I disagree to a lion's mane acting as a shield against teeth and claws to any great degree. Consider also this black bear has a rather thick "mane" of his own. Average specimen vs average specimen, one-on-one, I would give them a 50-50 if its a fight to the death. But, I agree with 'taker that the lion would eventually leave the fight and the bear would take to carcass. Should more lions show up, that would change everything.Agreed. Unless were dealing with a nomadic male Lion the pride will not be far when it comes to protecting a carcass.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 24, 2020 9:21:55 GMT -5
tomAgreeing with you here; the main issue being the weight as 80lbs may not sound much when comparing animals in the 1000lbs+ region, however, here in the high 200lbs to mid 300lbs region 80lbs could be a considerable difference maker. Imo this could definitely turn the tables in favour of the lion as his bones and forearm robusticity would equal if not best the bear's and the bear could get overwhelmed much more easily by the lion's explosive fighting style. At average weights I would favour the lion with a certain confidence; maybe I will think different about it in the future as there still is a lot I have to learn about bears but I would personally be more comfortable putting a 285lbs barren ground grizzly against the average Asian lion rather than a 285lbs Asian black bear. Nevertheless, we all know that bears are full of surprises like the female sloth bear fending off a mature male Bengal tiger in an intense effort to protect her yearling cubs; I won't dispute that an average Asian black bear would be able to kill the average Asian lion in some instances, it always depends on the individual itself.
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Post by tom on Mar 24, 2020 9:27:16 GMT -5
Your right. Another angle that is not often thought of is from one Bear (individual) to another or possibly even one Lion to another you may have individuals that are highly aggressive over others. So for instance a highly aggressive individual for an Asiatic Bear would likely fair better than a more passive individual.
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