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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 15:06:41 GMT -5
This is a really interesting hypothetical scenario. Going back to the start I don’t think a pack of lions would even survive the temperature difference, if they’re coming straight from a preserve in Africa. (Assuming they have to survive a winter in Alaska) That’s literally going from an average temp of 30 C (86 F) in a place like Serengeti, and going into a -35 C (-30 F) winter in Alaska. Sometimes colder. Even the coldest places where lions are found never get below freezing. There wouldn’t be a way for the lions to adapt quick enough.
If they’re only there for a few months, I see very little time for them to adapt, so I’m not sure.
Still though, disregarding temperature it’s a cool idea.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 16:02:29 GMT -5
This is a really interesting hypothetical scenario. Going back to the start I don’t think a pack of lions would even survive the temperature difference, if they’re coming straight from a preserve in Africa. (Assuming they have to survive a winter in Alaska) That’s literally going from an average temp of 30 C (86 F) in a place like Serengeti, and going into a -35 C (-30 F) winter in Alaska. Sometimes colder. Even the coldest places where lions are found never get below freezing. There wouldn’t be a way for the lions to adapt quick enough. If they’re only there for a few months, I see very little time for them to adapt, so I’m not sure. Still though, disregarding temperature it’s a cool idea. See also; "Bears surviving in Africa".
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Post by tom on Mar 26, 2020 17:04:10 GMT -5
This is a really interesting hypothetical scenario. Going back to the start I don’t think a pack of lions would even survive the temperature difference, if they’re coming straight from a preserve in Africa. (Assuming they have to survive a winter in Alaska) That’s literally going from an average temp of 30 C (86 F) in a place like Serengeti, and going into a -35 C (-30 F) winter in Alaska. Sometimes colder. Even the coldest places where lions are found never get below freezing. There wouldn’t be a way for the lions to adapt quick enough. If they’re only there for a few months, I see very little time for them to adapt, so I’m not sure. Still though, disregarding temperature it’s a cool idea. While interior Alaska can get brutally cold, generally SW Alaska and the Aleutian islands are much more moderate with regard to temps. But our little experiment would be from April thru October. Your correct they would need to adapt quickly or parish.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 17:10:40 GMT -5
Perhaps Canada would be just a tad better. Ah Comeon; the Canadians wouldn't mind a few lions. They're a tough bunch.
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smedz
Ursus abstrusus
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Post by smedz on Mar 26, 2020 18:28:46 GMT -5
Woah, woah, woah, woah, whats this supposed to mean? Explain this phrase please. As in they fight with their claws, fangs, jaws, and forelimbs like cats do. Just bears stand on their hind legs more often.
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Post by tom on Mar 29, 2020 12:41:30 GMT -5
I've been thinking more about this scenario and to be honest an average to large Pride of Lions plopped down in Alaska would disrupt the whole ecosystem. Bears are loners and a Lion pride poses a serious risk to any Bear regardless of size. Lions would be stealing any Bear kills vs the other way around IMO. If this pride in fact stayed together they would be virtually unchallenged. Female Bears with cubs especially would be preyed upon which would greatly affect the Grizzly population.
Please tell me I'm wrong or missing something, but that's the way I see it.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 29, 2020 15:04:19 GMT -5
I agree with you. A lion pride is just too large and powerful, it would really dominate all animals in Alaska.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 15:30:44 GMT -5
What if they were dropped on kodiak island, which has an estimated 3500 Kodiak bears?
Would a pride still dominate despite being one of highest bear density locations? (almost 1 per every square mile in 2005)
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Post by tom on Mar 29, 2020 16:29:56 GMT -5
The thing is Bears are solitary, loners. A Lion pride generally sticks together when hunting. The Bear would be on his own to face multiple Lions, even on Kodiak.
Now.. if a pride of Lions would happen onto a stream full of Bears fishing during the Salmon run, that would be an interesting scenario.
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Post by tom on Mar 29, 2020 16:40:22 GMT -5
That being said, would a large boar Brownie (1000 lbs) if attacked inflict some damage of his own? Quite possibly, in fact quite likely. He may kill one, possibly another, but ultimately would be overwhelmed especially if any of the pride Males were involved.
It's a numbers game and the Lions have the numbers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 17:43:02 GMT -5
Yeah fair point. I do think a male bear would put up a good enough fight to deter a potential attack. I don’t think even a group of several lionesses are risky enough to attack a predator the size of an upper-end male kodiak unless they desperately need the food. With the alpha male it might be different.
Also unless I missed it, I noticed there wasn’t a specific amount of lions given. Most prides are around 15 members strong, but a lot of those would consist of cubs too.
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Post by tom on Mar 29, 2020 18:05:59 GMT -5
Remember hungry Lions are incredibly bold but not suicidal. Look what they do in Africa with regards to dangerous game there. Lions are experts at coordinating their attack. We can only speculate what would happen in a single Bear standoff with a hunting party of Lions. IMO 4 or more hungry Lions would be very difficult to handle for a single Bear. One on one it's no contest in favor of the Bear.
But like I said it's not the power of one, but many.
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Post by tom on Mar 29, 2020 18:08:38 GMT -5
Also unless I missed it, I noticed there wasn’t a specific amount of lions given. Most prides are around 15 members strong, but a lot of those would consist of cubs too. I mentioned a medium to large pride. We will also include two pride males ( brothers) in that pride. So let's say 15-20 lions including the two males. We'll say two males, 12 adult females and the rest cubs. I've read where some large prides can be as many as 30 individuals but we'll stick to 20.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 18:41:21 GMT -5
Remember hungry Lions are incredibly bold but not suicidal. Look what they do in Africa with regards to dangerous game there. Lions are experts at coordinating their attack. We can only speculate what would happen in a single Bear standoff with a hunting party of Lions. IMO 4 or more hungry Lions would be very difficult to handle for a single Bear. One on one it's no contest in favor of the Bear. But like I said it's not the power of one, but many. My reasoning is I believe I’ve seen videos of groups of lionesses failing to kill a buffalo. With that said I don’t know too much about lions so it could be wrong, but I think a 1300 lbs kodiak would fare pretty well against a smaller group of lionesses. Multiple males would be a different sorry though, considering their ability to take down larger prey. Another interesting scenario might be feeding on a beached whale’s carcass, because as well as salmon fishing, it’s one of the few scenarios groups of bears will come together to feed. The lions and bears could be at peace, but considering it might get very crowded in a place like that, there could be lots of fighting.
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Post by tom on Mar 29, 2020 18:52:39 GMT -5
You could be right and let's not forget, Bears would not likely be the first thing on the menu. In fact if they are regularly catching and killing moose, Elk, deer etc.. they may just avoid the Bears altogether. 1300 lb Bears be an exceptional Bear and not the norm. An average adult male coastal bear would be smaller.
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Post by brobear on Mar 30, 2020 1:52:37 GMT -5
By Ursus Arctos - carnivora.net/brown-bear-ursus-arctos-t2935.html
835 pounds is an average for a sub-adult 8-9 year old Kodiak. Notice the section under Adult Weight. "Willard A. Troyer writes: Four males weighed in the fall ranged from 960 - 1,346 pounds and three spring species ranged from 813 - 1190 lbs." Take the median value between 813 and 1190, and you'll come up with an average of about 1000 lbs for boar Kodiak Brown Bears.
ADF&G technical report on Alaskan Grizzlies suggests an average weight of 441 kg, or 974 lbs for mature (>10 y.o.) Brown Bears from Alaska Peninsula. *A 1,000+ pound grizzly boar is no joke, even for a pride of lions. The pride of 30 lions is the one that hunts elephants, but this number is an extreme case. A pride of from 12 to 15 adults is much more common. We must remember that a kill must feed all. Also, I have never watched a video where the entire pride were all-over an adversary. In fact, in isn't too unusual to watch a single lion do all the work as the rest of the pride stands back and watches. But for a big animal such as a giraffe, usually two or three lions. ( from my observations ). So... if a pride of lions were to go after a big boar grizzly... and they make a successful ambush attack, they will certainly kill the bear. But at what cost? ( IMHO ) if a single lion is killed in the process; then it is a draw - one dead bear / one dead lion. If this were to happen often enough, in time the lions would learn, as the tiger did probably a million years ago, you just don't wanna mess with the "Boss of the Woods".
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Post by tom on Mar 30, 2020 7:41:33 GMT -5
There is a lot more thought that goes into a Lion hunting party that I had previously given no thought to. This is a very good article that explains the hunting tactics of a Lion hunting party. In short the tendency to participate in prey capture increases with the difficulty in capturing the prey. If the success rate of a single Lion is high there is less chance for participation of the rest of the hunting party. Sometimes too many participants will interfere with a successful kill. IMO the number of Lions needed to participate will depend heavily on how large and difficult the prey is to bring down and kill. See inside the red squares. So... given this very good information how would this hypothetically apply to a large Bear? I believe it would be the same as for any large dangerous game. There would certainly be participation from more than one lion and only enough so to successfully make a kill. I also believe it may have to include one or both of the pride males. www.cbs.umn.edu/sites/cbs.umn.edu/files/public/downloads/Group_hunting_behaviour_of_lions-a_search_for_cooperation.pdf
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Post by brobear on Mar 30, 2020 7:58:50 GMT -5
Quote: IMO the number of Lions needed to participate will depend heavily on how large and difficult the prey is to bring down and kill. *I agree. As many as is needed would attack the big 1000+ pound grizzly and, I carry no doubts, the lions would kill him. But bears are tough and can take a lot of damage. I still believe that in ( I will make a wild guess ) 7 out of 10 such attacks will lead to the death of at least one lion; in rare cases two. Perhaps among this 7-out-of-10 are lions who will die from injuries minutes, hours, or days after the battle. *Edit and add: that is a good informative post Tom.
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Post by brobear on Mar 30, 2020 8:05:00 GMT -5
Just something to consider..... for the past 1,000,000 years ( give or take a thousand ). The original king of beasts. He once lived in Pleistocene China among giant tigers. He once lived in Pleistocene Europe among giant lions and scimitar cats. He once lived in Pleistocene N. America among scimitar cats, saber-toothed cats, and giant lions. He once lived in N. Africa among lions. He now lives in Russia among tigers. Therefore; its pretty obvious that a big boar grizzly is no joke to the big cats.
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Post by tom on Mar 30, 2020 9:07:21 GMT -5
Agreed. As I stated a few posts back that if the Lions are making kills on other Alaskan game they may avoid Bears altogether with the possible exception of small Bears or Bear cubs. Likewise for the Bears, they would likely avoid Lions.
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