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Post by brobear on Mar 22, 2018 18:06:54 GMT -5
From Pckts - Probably one of the main reasons why tigers are thought to have the strongest bite of big cats is their relatively shorter jaws compared to Lions Statement from Adam Below:
Relative to weight, it’s the jaguar. Recent research by Adam Hartstone-Rose and colleagues at the University of South Carolina, who compared the bite forces of nine different cat species, reveals that jaguars have three-quarters the bite force of tigers. However, given that jaguars are considerably smaller (the body mass of the individual in the study was only half that of the tiger), relatively speaking their bite is stronger. “If you had to choose, you’d want to be bitten by a jaguar, not a lion or a tiger. But pound for pound, jaguars pack a stronger punch,” says Adam. “The strength of the jaguar’s bite is due to the arrangement of its jaw muscles, which, relative to weight, are slightly stronger than those of other cats. In addition – also relative to weight – its jaws are slightly shorter, which increases the leverage for biting.”
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Post by brobear on Mar 22, 2018 18:10:52 GMT -5
From Tigerluver - Good reads @pckts. I'll go through them thoroughly when I get the chance.
Bite force quotient type methods will be needed for size corrected comparisons as everyone already gets.
From Bite club: comparative bite force in big biting mammals and the prediction of predatory behaviour in fossil taxa (from now I'm going to give paper names instead of just the in text citations to help folks locate the works easier) has the BFQs as follows: Jaguar: 142 (unadjusted), 137 (allometry adjusted) Leopard: 100 (unadjusted), 94 (allometry adjusted) Tiger: 140 (unadjusted), 127 (allometry adjusted) Cougar: 118 (unadjusted), 108 (allometry adjusted) Lion: 118 (unadjusted), 112 (allometry adjusted) Cheetah: 110 (adjusted), 119 (allometry adjusted)
To find a correlation with skull characteristics, here are the zygomatic width/basal length ratios of the cats (the greater the number the proportionately wider the skull): Jaguar: 0.837 Leopard: 0.723 Tiger: 0.788 Cougar: 0.77 Lion: 0.743 Cheetah: 0.772
So a positive correlation of greater skull width and and BFQ, although at least for this data set the relationship is not a perfectly straight line, but rather there are few bumps on the way. n=1 for each species is not statistically helpful either.
One thing the skull width - BFQ brings to my mind is that prehistoric cats probably had some weaker bites with their longer skulls. Probably a remnant of the weasel-like ancestor rather than an evolutionary change (i.e. the cave lion lineage went from longer to broad).
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Post by tom on Mar 22, 2018 18:57:18 GMT -5
In addition – also relative to weight – its jaws are slightly shorter, which increases the leverage for biting.” OK I get that the shorter jaw length may lend itself to a stronger bite In cats, but how does that theory work with Crocodiles who have some of the highest bite forces with a long jaw length?
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Post by brobear on Mar 23, 2018 3:15:08 GMT -5
Good point Tom. And still the all-time champion in the land-based animal kingdom bite-force contest - Tyrannosaurus rex! Even pound-for-pound, Mr. T-rex had a bite force far surpassing even crocodiles. And he was not a short-faced dinosaur.
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Post by brobear on Mar 29, 2018 6:30:26 GMT -5
Good information Ranji; I agree with all said.
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Post by Potential Recruit. on Aug 4, 2018 20:36:50 GMT -5
This ^ is an example of why I remain wary about signing on here.
Poster 'Ranji' evidently added some "good information", which even grumpy ol' brobear deemed agreeable, yet the post has been deleted, although it cannot have been "spam" - so this is yeah, frankly kinda off-putting.
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Post by brobear on Sept 3, 2018 4:13:38 GMT -5
Rule #8... Spam will not go unnoticed and will be dealt with harshly. When a poster is obviously dead-set on stirring-up trouble by constant spam, and not on providing reliable information, then his posts are likely to be deleted; sometimes even good posts may be lost. War is hell.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 5, 2018 7:38:52 GMT -5
Brobear....we know that grizzlies psi is about 1250, All the sites basically agree on that. But also, those same sites Say that kodiaks have a psi of about 900. My question is how could this be? A kodiak is basically the same animal as the grizzly, just much bigger, larger skull and jaws, so this means the kodiaks psi should be greater than grizzlies correct?
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Post by tom on Sept 5, 2018 10:50:57 GMT -5
Not necessarily. Look at the bite force for a Hyena which is much smaller than a Lion, but has a much higher bite force. Hyena's can literally crush femur bones of a Buffalo. Some of that is the design of the jaw. I guess I haven't seen the figures for a Kodiak bear but lets just say size doesn't always matter.
More to my point and I have mentioned this before is..... How do we really know what the bite force of a Grizzly or a Lion etc... is? How are these measurements being taken? Personally I think many are just educated guesses. Even if you could rig up some kind of test which would be very difficult to do on a live animal, how would you actually know whether the animal in question is giving you his strongest bite?? Yep, you guessed correctly, you wouldn't...
Now that being said, the exception may be Crocodiles or sharks that are baited with something that resembles live food on pressure sensing device which for those two species may be much easier to get an accurate test, but for other animals I'm not so sure. Ask yourself this when you go to take a bite of food, are you biting as hard as you can??
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 5, 2018 11:38:20 GMT -5
Tom.... you might be right yes, when humans or animals bite its probably not full Force. But at least those psi are an estimate, at least we have something.
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Post by brobear on Sept 9, 2018 7:57:29 GMT -5
Big cats do not consume bones nor bone marrow. Why then such powerful jaws? My thoughts: the powerful jaw muscles of the big cats is for stamina. A big cat must hold onto the mouth of ( say ) a buffalo long enough to suffocate the huge herbivore. A bite to the throat must be held tight until the herbivore is strangled to death. Bears do not kill in this fashion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2018 8:31:39 GMT -5
Which animal would have a stronger bite between a 700 pound tiger and a 900 pound brown bear? I think the brown bear would have a bigger bite.
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Post by brobear on Sept 9, 2018 9:16:03 GMT -5
I honestly believe that lions and tigers have a stronger bite-force; but measuring bite-force is not an exact science. In any case, bite-force is not a game-changer in a fight. Just one advantage of many that one animal might have over another. The grizzly has a strong bite - strong enough to do considerable damage.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 9, 2018 9:59:54 GMT -5
Brobear...there is no way big cats have a stronger Psi than Brown bears. Its generally accepted that grizzlies have a psi of 1250, bengal tigers 1050, siberians 950, And lions 650 (i think lions should be a little higher) These bite forces are even accepted by the big cat fans.
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Post by brobear on Oct 8, 2018 15:17:14 GMT -5
forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-top-20-worlds-strongest-animal-bite-forces-measured-in-psi-new.2393047/ The Top 20 World's Strongest Animal Bite Forces, Measured in PSI (NEW!) This list is measured in lbs PSI (Pound per Square Inch). Which is the pressure resulting from a force of one pound-force applied to an area of one square inch. You can also research the bite forces in BFQ (Bite Force Quotient). The big difference between PSI and BFQ is that BFQ takes in account to the animal’s body size. For example, a spotted hyena would have a much lower BFQ than their PSI. Due to the fact, the actual force of their jaw structure and musculature would generate is not all that high. This is because hyenas have extremely strong teeth designed perfectly for bone crushing that is integral in their biting power. They also have a mechanism in their skulls that keeps the skull strong and secure under pressure. Just for comparison, a human (adult male) has a measured PSI of 150. 20. Cougar Their muscular jaws and long canine teeth are adapted for cutting meat, tendon and sinews. They can crush the skulls and spines of large prey such as wolf and horse skulls. PSI: 350 19. Gray Wolf Their teeth are heavy and large, better suited to bone crushing than those of other canids. Though not as specialized as hyenas. This force is sufficient to break open and crush bones with only a few bites. PSI: 406 18. Mastiff (Domestic Dog) It has the highest bite force in domestic dogs, PSI: 556, surprising? the Rottweiler comes in at second with PSI: 328, third goes to the German Shepherd, with PSI: 238 and then fourth is the American Pitbull with PSI: 235 17. Great White Shark Sharks have the strongest bite among animals in class fish. The great whites PSI isn’t that big but it doesn’t necessarily need a strong bite force, because much of the damage inflicted by sharks is due to their teeth. Their teeth cut through the flesh of their prey like knife threw butter. PSI: 669 16. African Lion Lion has the weakest bite among big cats so far (leopards bite force is not yet measured, possibly weaker). They have sharp teeth, prey is usually killed by strangulation, which can cause hypoxia. PSI: 691 15. Jaguar Their teeth can pierce through the skull piercing the brain, also adapted to pierce turtle shells. Jaguars have the strongest bite compared to size among cat family. PSI: 700 14. Brown Bear Bears are mostly omnivorous, they have very strong teeth, the incisors are relatively big and the canine teeth are large. Unlike most animals in order carnivorous, their teeth are adapted for vegetable diet. Polar bears diet however mostly consists of seals. PSI: 850 13. Kodiak Bear Bears are mostly omnivorous, they have very strong teeth, the incisors are relatively big and the canine teeth are large. Unlike most animals in order carnivorous, their teeth are adapted for vegetable diet. Polar bears diet however mostly consists of seals. PSI: 930 12. Siberian Tiger They not only have very strong jaws but also very sharp teeth, when hunting very large prey, tigers prefer to bite the throat until the prey dies of strangulation. Tigers have the strongest bite among big cats and ranks second among carnivorous mammals. PSI: 950 11. Alligator Snapping Turtle They have the strongest bite among animals with no teeth; they are typically not prone to biting without provocation. Despite they have no teeth, their powerful jaws can easily amputate human fingers. PSI: 1004 10. Bengal Tiger They not only have very strong jaws but also very sharp teeth, when hunting very large prey, tigers prefer to bite the throat until the prey dies of strangulation. Tigers have the strongest bite among big cats and ranks second among carnivorous mammals. PSI: 1050 9. Spotted/Striped Hyena Their teeth are more specialized for consuming coarse food, crushing and digesting large bones. Their milk contains one of the richest calcium of all land predators, from bones they eat. PSI: 1100 8. Polar Bear Bears are mostly omnivorous, they have very strong teeth, the incisors are relatively big and the canine teeth are large. Unlike most animals in order carnivorous, their teeth are adapted for vegetable diet. Polar bears diet however mostly consists of seals. PSI: 1235 7. Grizzly Bear Bears are mostly omnivorous, they have very strong teeth, the incisors are relatively big and the canine teeth are large. Unlike most animals in order carnivorous, their teeth are adapted for vegetable diet. Polar bears diet however mostly consists of seals. PSI: 1250 6. Bull Shark Sharks have the strongest bite among animals in class fish. The great whites PSI isn’t that big but it doesn’t necessarily need a strong bite force, because much of the damage inflicted by sharks is due to their teeth. Their teeth cut through the flesh of their prey like knife threw butter. PSI: 1250 5. Silverback Gorilla Their teeth are big, not very sharp but they have very strong neck and jaw muscles. Capable of giving a strong bite force. They are primary herbivores, their jaws are adapted to chew and digest hard plants like bamboos. PSI: 1300 4. Hippopotamus They have more powerful jaw muscles and extremely large tendons despite their teeth being less sharp compared to most carnivores. Although they’re herbivores, they have the strongest bite among all mammals. PSI: 1821 3. American Alligator Since alligators feed by grabbing and holding onto their prey, they have evolved sharp teeth for tearing and holding onto flesh. With very powerful muscles, they can close the jaws and hold them shut. PSI: 2125 2. Nile Crocodile Crocodiles have quite smaller jaw muscles and teeth anatomy adaptation like alligators. They have the strongest bite ever measured on living animals. But they have weak jaw opening strength, compared to powerful jaw closing strength. PSI: 5000 1. Saltwater Crocodile Crocodiles have quite smaller jaw muscles and teeth anatomy adaptation like alligators. They have the strongest bite ever measured on living animals. But they have weak jaw opening strength, compared to powerful jaw closing strength. PSI: 7700
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Post by brobear on Oct 8, 2018 15:18:35 GMT -5
Continued from above post: More contenders (bite force strengths haven’t been measured yet): Killer Whale, Wolverine, Tiger Shark, Leopard, Piranha, Sperm Whale etc. Honorable mentions: Cape Hunting Dog, has a PSI of 340, right behind the cougar. Kangal, it’s said they’re at 743 PSI which would easily put them on the list. But other claims have said they have a bite force even higher than hyenas. There has been no concrete proof on either of these claims, take it as you will. Myth: Tasmanian Devil, strongest PSI bite force in an animal? Not true. They’re around 20 pounds in weight and their PSI is 200. They do however process the strongest bite compared to their body size among any other animal, which means their BFQ would be considerably higher. Note: I notice that the brown bear ( probably Alaskan brown bear ), Kodiak bear, and grizzly were all measured separately. The grizzly ( Ursus arctos horribilis ) beat out the lion, the tiger, and the spotted hyena... ...and put a smile on my face.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 8, 2018 18:53:54 GMT -5
I bet the grizzly psi made you happy Brobear, lol. Let me ask you something, do you think that the grizzlys psi is much higher than the kodiak psi because the grizzlys have a habit of hunting more? You think their jaws have adapted to be stronger? Because in theory the kodiak psi should be higher, same species, wider skull. What do you think?
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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2018 2:12:22 GMT -5
I bet the grizzly psi made you happy Brobear, lol. Let me ask you something, do you think that the grizzlys psi is much higher than the kodiak psi because the grizzlys have a habit of hunting more? You think their jaws have adapted to be stronger? Because in theory the kodiak psi should be higher, same species, wider skull. What do you think? I have read this comparison before, with the grizzly having a stronger bite than the Kodiak bear. I came up with the same thoughts. The grizzly does more hunting and perhaps finds more animal carcasses; more red meat. Also maybe the grizzly eats tougher plants; not sure. I have also read that the Kamchatka and Amur brown bear compare the same with the Amur beat having bigger canines and stronger jaws.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 9, 2018 5:15:19 GMT -5
Yes i would have thought it was because of that Brobear. Its incredible. Its all about the evolution of the animals. That is why we have subspecies.
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2018 6:12:56 GMT -5
I really hate it that posts on this site are not numbered so that we can refer to a particular post by giving that particular post number. but anyway, I believe that this last bite force list is probably the most accurate found thus far. Now, to be fair and honest, over in the old AVA our top-of-the-line posters ( of extreme education ) which included Peter and Ursusarctosmiddendorffi ( yes that was his handle ) conduced a comparison between the grizzly and both lion and tiger; which took a matter of months. They concluded that the big cats have heavier jaw bones to which are attached more muscle. The big cat "should" have a stronger bite force. Here is my theory: the jaw strength of a big cat is not used for a full-force bite ( cats do not devour bones ) but rather for a long-lasting bite. Consider the lion or tiger suffocating a buffalo. It takes holding-on tight for a lengthy time period. The wolf, the grizzly, and the hyena regularly crack open bones. I will edit and add: even BigBonns, an avid grizzly enthusiast, after comparing ( in a nature museum ) the jaw bones of big cats and bears, he had to agree.
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