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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 13, 2020 9:04:02 GMT -5
I've tracked the source of the study on Microsoft Excel on the ShaggyGods-Forum and it is from a work of Per Christiansen; definitely a reliable source. I'll look for the exact work and see if I can get access to it.
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 13:46:44 GMT -5
I've tracked the source of the study on Microsoft Excel on the ShaggyGods-Forum and it is from a work of Per Christiansen; definitely a reliable source. I'll look for the exact work and see if I can get access to it. Wow! great job. I've always believed, to be a great scientist in the study of wildlife or paleontology, you must also be a great detective. And you apparently are.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 20, 2020 19:22:05 GMT -5
Guys, I made a huge mistake concerning the study "brobear" has shared in the excel document; I actually had to do it the reverse way and the highest values mean a proportionally stronger limb bone. Here are the new rankings based on the correct calculations:
Humerus Stoutness
1. Cave Bear (Ursus Spelaeus) - 34.4% 2. Sloth Bear - 33% 3. Polar Bear - 32.3% 4. American Black Bear - 32.2% 5. Brown Bear - 32% 6. Arctodus Simus - 31.8% 7. Sun Bear - 31.2% 8. Asiatic Black Bear - 31% 9. Spectacled Bear - 28.1%
The three most robust, individual limb bones in the sample:
1. Cave Bear (36.4%) - length of 323.8mm, least circumference of 117.9mm 2. Kodiak Bear (35.8%) - length of 349.8mm, least circumference of 125.1mm 3. Polar Bear (35.7%) - length of 319.7mm, least circumference of 114.1mm
Femur Stoutness
1. Cave Bear - 26.99% 2. Sun Bear - 26.88% 3. Arctodus Simus - 26.26% 4. Asiatic Black Bear - 25.47% 5. Sloth Bear - 25.13% 6. American Black Bear - 24.80% 7. Brown Bear - 24.49% 8. Polar Bear - 24.15%
The three most robust, individual limb bones in the sample:
1. Cave Bear (29.13%) - length of 495.84mm, least circumference of 144.42mm 2. Asiatic Black Bear (28.94%) - length of 323.66mm, least circumference of 93.66mm 3. Cave Bear (28.84%) - length of 493.62mm, least circumference of 142.35mm
We unfortunately didn't receive any data on the age/gender of the bears being investigated; sample sizes were also limited in the case of the American black bear (2 individuals), Arctodus Simus (3 individuals) and the spectacled bear (1 individual). There seems to be a tendency that cave bears are the most robust species whereas Kodiak brown bears come very close to their numbers. Analyzing the two Kodiak bears in the sample, we would have a humerus stoutness of 35.7% and a femur stoutness of 26.6%.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 20, 2020 19:29:43 GMT -5
Nice Taker, now it all makes sense. The Humerus Stoutness coincides with the limb robusticity study at reply #41 which had the sloth bear on top of the ML-Diameters of all four major limb bones. Of course, that study did not include the cave bear. The Spectacled bear is still at the bottom, same as the other study.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 20, 2020 19:33:00 GMT -5
King KodiakI don't know if you've read the edited comment of mine already but every Kodiak fan can be happy now as the humerus of the two individuals investigated had a mean ratio of 35.7% which means it clearly topped the list in this regard.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 20, 2020 19:42:56 GMT -5
Yes, i read your edit Taker. Am am happy sure. You mean they top the list out of all extant bears correct? Not counting the cave bear.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 20, 2020 19:45:27 GMT -5
King KodiakRegarding humerus stoutness the two Kodiak bears included in the sample would even surpass the ancient cave bear by over 1%. However, eight other brown bears were also included and their indexes were relatively low (I unfortunately don't know anything about the age/gender/origin of these individuals), that's why the total average of all brown bears is mediocre.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 20, 2020 19:54:12 GMT -5
I see, two Kodiaks were analyzed. So how many Cave bears were analyzed?
Yes, i was wondering why the brown bear was #5 overall in he humerus stoutness, even the American black was #4. Most likely some subadult brown bears or even females were used as no age or sex given. In the other robusticity study the American black was #7 at the ML- diameter of the four major limb bones.
Great work Taker!
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 20, 2020 20:00:48 GMT -5
King Kodiak Six cave bears were included. Based on the sample size, this study has some great insight. We have a total of nine brown bears (two of them being Kodiaks), six cave bears, six polar bears, four Asiatic black bears, four sloth bears, four sun bears, three North American giant short-faced bears, two American black bears and one spectacled bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 20, 2020 20:07:45 GMT -5
Ok Taker but the question i have is, you said the 2 kodiak bears even surpassed the Cave bears by 1% in the humerus stoutness, did you compare those 2 kodiaks with the 2 largest cave bears?
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 20, 2020 20:08:30 GMT -5
What about the polar bear? How many were included?
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 20, 2020 20:14:24 GMT -5
What about the polar bear? How many were included? 6.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 20, 2020 20:14:32 GMT -5
King KodiakI compared them with the total average of the six cave bears included.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 20, 2020 20:17:06 GMT -5
Reply 82.
1. Cave Bear (36.4%) - length of 323.8mm, least circumference of 117.9mm 2. Kodiak Bear (35.8%) - length of 349.8mm, least circumference of 125.1mm 3. Polar Bear (35.7%) - length of 319.7mm, least circumference of 114.1mm
This data about the three most robust individuals confirms some of our discussions (estimate).
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 20, 2020 20:24:23 GMT -5
King Kodiak I compared them with the total average of the six cave bears included. I see Taker. Thing is that is an "uneven" comparison, 2 with 6. If you had 6 kodiaks in that sample, the stoutness percentage would most likely be less than the 6 cave bears. (Depending on how large or small the other kodiak specimens are).
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 20, 2020 21:01:19 GMT -5
theundertaker45: in that study you can see the measurements of each individual specimen correct? Why dont you grab the 2 largest cave bear specimens and compare them with the 2 kodiak bear specimens? Lets see what you get.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 21, 2020 5:52:35 GMT -5
King KodiakThe two Kodiaks had an average humerus stoutness of 35.69% and a femur stoutness of 26.62%; the two highest scoring cave bears had values of 35.47% and 28.99% respectively.
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Post by brobear on Nov 21, 2020 6:03:42 GMT -5
King Kodiak The two Kodiaks had an average humerus stoutness of 35.69% and a femur stoutness of 26.62%; the two highest scoring cave bears had values of 35.47% and 28.99% respectively. According to these examples, the results would suggest that the Kodiak bear and the classic cave bear stand pretty-much on an equal level - in their upper limb bones.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 21, 2020 6:26:33 GMT -5
King Kodiak The two Kodiaks had an average humerus stoutness of 35.69% and a femur stoutness of 26.62%; the two highest scoring cave bears had values of 35.47% and 28.99% respectively. Wow ok, that is awesome really. Now yes, we can say that Kodiaks have more robust humerus than cave bears. (You said Spelaeus though, we would have to see Ingressus which are larger). Anyways, so the cave bears have the overall highest score because other brown bears other than Kodiaks were mixed in.
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Post by brobear on Nov 21, 2020 6:37:45 GMT -5
Humerus: 35.69% vs 35.47% = very little difference. Femur: 26.62% vs 28.99% = a difference of 2.37%. These small differences could have more to do with individuality than species.
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