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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 16, 2020 9:29:22 GMT -5
/\ A black bear's bone strength displays a shadow of the much stronger brown and polar bear. This makes me certain that the extinct bears have even stronger bones.
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Post by brobear on Jun 17, 2020 5:42:22 GMT -5
/\ A black bear's bone strength displays a shadow of the much stronger brown and polar bear. This makes me certain that the extinct bears have even stronger bones. Some of them did. Not all extinct bears were big and powerful.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 17, 2020 7:14:58 GMT -5
Reply 61. I need to brush up on extinct bears. You are right, bears such as the auverngne and sugar bears are not as strong as brown and polar bears. The short faced bears might be heavier but their limbs are among the least robust of all bears and they have poor grappling skills compared to other bears and even big cats.
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 4:26:36 GMT -5
Perhaps 'Taker might understand what he is looking at here.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 13, 2020 4:55:06 GMT -5
I don't get all the information of this document but one interesting thing is the Humerus length/width ratio of the specimens analyzed; the lower the ratio the more robust the humerus bone is on a proportional basis. Arctodus Simus (n=4) ~0.318 Melursus Ursinus (n=4) ~0.330 Tremarctos Ornatus (n=1) ~0.281 Ursus Americanus (n=2) ~0.322 Ursus Arctos (n=9) ~0.320 Ursus Malayanus (n=4) ~0.312 Ursus Maritimus (n=6) ~0.323 Ursus Spelaeus (n=6) ~0.344 Ursus Thibetanus (n=5) ~0.310We can see that out of all species the Asiatic black bear has astonishingly the first place (I didn't include the spectacled bear as it was only one specimen) with the sun bear being a close second and the North American short-faced bear coming in at third place. So according to this chart it would be: 1. Asiatic Black Bear 2. Sun Bear 3. Arctodus Simus 4. Brown Bear 5. American Black Bear 6. Polar Bear 7. Sloth Bear 8. Ursus Spelaeus (Spectacled Bear only one specimen) A very surprising and shocking discovery for me; may I know where you got that document from brobear?
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 5:04:52 GMT -5
From reply #10; I probably just found it googling for information. I'm kicking myself for not taking down the source. *Edit and add: are you certain you don't somehow have this backwards. Cave bear in last place followed by sloth bear?
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 13, 2020 5:06:54 GMT -5
Only someone with access to bone collections in museums or other scientific papers could have done such calculations; it would be great if you linked the original source.
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 5:14:02 GMT -5
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 13, 2020 6:11:58 GMT -5
Extensive Data on limb bones of all carnivorous species (very large sample of over 300 individuals from nearly 100 species) : datadryad.org/stash/dataset/doi:10.5061/dryad.77tm4Results are the following: Scapula Length/Width Ratio1. Polar Bear: 89.3% 2. Sun Bear: 88.2% 3. Asiatic Black Bear: 88.1% 4. Brown Bear: 86.9% 5. Sloth Bear: 86.8% 6. American Black Bear: 83.9% 7. Giant Panda: 78.7% 8. Spectacled Bear: 76.7% 9. Arctodus Simus: 75.4% other values: Lion: 71.7% Smilodon Fatalis: 72.3% American Lion: 70.0% Humerus ML Diameter/Humerus Length Ratio
1. Brown Bear - 10.9% 2. Arctodus Simus - 10.6% 3. American Black Bear - 10.4% 4. Polar Bear - 9.9% 5. Sloth Bear - 9.7% 6. Asiatic Black Bear - 9.4% 7. Giant Panda - 8.8% 8. Sun Bear - 8.7% 9. Spectacled Bear - 8.5% other values: Lion: 8.6% Smilodon Fatalis: 12.7% American Lion: 10.1% Radius ML-Diameter/Radius Length Ratio1. Polar Bear - 10.2% 2. Brown Bear - 9.9% 3. Sloth Bear - 9.2% 4. Sun Bear - 8.8% 5. Asiatic Black Bear/Giant Panda - 8.7% 6. Spectacled Bear - 8.3% 7. American Black Bear - 7.9% other values: Lion: 9.4% Smilodon Fatalis: 11.9% American Lion: 11.3% Ulna ML-Diameter/Ulna Length Ratio1. Giant Panda - 6.8% 2. Sloth Bear - 6.6% 3. American Black Bear - 6.2% 4. Asiatic Black Bear/Polar Bear - 6.1% 5. Brown Bear - 6% 6. Spectacled Bear - 5.3% 7. Sun Bear - 5.1% other values: Lion: 5.4% Smilodon Fatalis: 8% Panthera Atrox: 5.6% Femur ML-Diameter/Femur Length Ratio1. Giant Panda - 9.8% 2. Sloth Bear - 9.0% 3. Brown Bear - 8.9% 4. Polar Bear - 8.7% 5. American Black Bear/Asiatic Black Bear/Sun Bear - 8.6% other values: Lion: 9.5% Smilodon Fatalis - 9.5% American Lion - 9.1% Tibia ML-Diameter/Tibia Length Ratio1. Giant Panda - 9.4% 2. Sloth Bear - 9.2% 3. Brown Bear - 8.9% 4. Sun Bear - 8.6% 5. American Black Bear - 8.4% 6. Asiatic Black Bear - 8% 7. Polar Bear - 7.9% 8. Spectacled Bear - 7.4% other values: Lion: 9.7% Smilodon Fatalis: 10.9% American Lion: 9.9%
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 13, 2020 6:27:48 GMT -5
Scapula Length/Width Ratio. As confirm the polar bear has a more robust scapula than both the p.atrox and smilodon fatalis (as possibly that of the smilodon populator) making the yellowish white bear the superior grappler. Confirms that a male polar bear can hit harder than the p.atrox, smilodon fatalis, and smilodon populator being a plantigrade.
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 6:31:03 GMT -5
I will not pretend to comprehend that which I am totally clueless about. However, I'm sure that this is great information and deeply appreciated.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 13, 2020 7:16:18 GMT -5
brobear It might look complicated at the beginning but it is relatively simple; these ratios just compare length and width. Let's take the scapula for example: The scapula width of the polar bear is 11% shorter than the scapula length in its distance. Hence why the width makes up ~89% of the scapula length. That means the polar bear has a proportionately much more massive scapula than a lion for example. The same method is applied to the other bones. Apart from that, Smilodon Fatalis was enormously impressive regarding bone width in its arms, a very robust animal for its size.
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 7:24:31 GMT -5
I notice that in the "Scapula Length/Width Ratio" the two non-Ursinae bears come in last.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 13, 2020 7:35:45 GMT -5
This is kind of surprising as the Panda was #7 in the other measurements.
Ulna bone:
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 13, 2020 7:49:43 GMT -5
Undertaker: reply #64, can you please revise your list. I see the Asiatic black bear like in the middle, it does not have the lowest value.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 13, 2020 8:13:36 GMT -5
King KodiakIt has according to these measurements; 0.310 is the lowest value.
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 8:21:58 GMT -5
Would I be mistaken in that the Scapula has a great deal to do with grappling ability? ( range of motion in the arms ). Edit and add; the thought just occurred to me; there's a chance I might have found this over in Wildfact ( can't say for certain ).
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 13, 2020 8:24:34 GMT -5
King Kodiak It has according to these measurements; 0.310 is the lowest value. Not counting the Spectacled bear because it has only 1 specimen i see. But anyhow, it seems weird that the cave bear (the most bearish of all bears) would come in last. That info comes from an excel list that god knows who made and we dont know how accurate it is.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 13, 2020 8:32:18 GMT -5
Would I be mistaken in that the Scapula has a great deal to do with grappling ability? ( range of motion in the arms ). I would say that in general, everything that has to do with the shoulders and front limbs have to do with grappling. This is the scapula bone:
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 8:47:01 GMT -5
I would suggest showing this to Peter, Warsaw, or tigerluver.
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