American Lion and Cave Lion

[theundertaker45]

@cheetah

Guate basically explains that their methods were done very sloppy and when using a more calculated approach from Christiansen/Harris the max. size will go down. So no, they are not just words; he actually knows better than some "experts" which is really funny.

[Deleted]

theundertaker45

Okay but does guate or you have any evidence to back the words up?You cannot really refute one study with another

[theundertaker45]

@cheetah

I'll tell you this one more and for the last time right now. Guate did a whole calculation and explanation in his comment, it seems that you are either unable to understand the points being made or that you didn't read through it carefully enough. If you still plead on an above 500kg max. for the American lion, then please leave this discussion as you are presenting information proven/reviewed to be flawed.

[brobear]

Nov 27, 2020 17:02:59 GMT -5 @cheetah said:

The american lion maximum estimate is 523 kg
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530457/

523kg kilograms is equal to 1,153.02 pounds which is really impossible. The head-and-body length of P. atrox and a coastal brown bear are fairy equal. 523 kg is pretty-much normal for the bear which has a far greater girth than the big cat. In is impossible for the P. artox at similar length and far less girth to have equal weight. Average fully grown male Alaska Peninsula brown bear (9 years+) - 857.6 pounds
                  

[brobear]

dinoanimals.com/animals/american-lion-the-largest-lion-in-history/ 
 
*I cannot copy and paste this; but this is a very interesting read.

[brobear]

Apr 9, 2021 3:52:38 GMT -5 theundertaker45 said:

Panthera Atrox model by "Prehistoric Fauna".

I would have to wager on the bear - whatever amount I have in my bank account at the time.

[brobear]

Size of the American lion given here: dinoanimals.com/animals/american-lion-the-largest-lion-in-history/ 
From 550 to 770 pounds. So average probably about 600 pounds.
 
Average fully grown male Kodiak bear (9 years+) - 1077.3 pounds.

[theundertaker45]

brobear

As we can see one of the largest members of the genus "Panthera" still is significantly smaller than the largest modern brown bears; it can't compare to the Kodiak bear in terms of arm/chest/neck girth and is at a huge weight disadvantage. As more and more time passes I am really questioning people trying to put a significantly smaller carnivore up against a much larger one. I could understand the philosophy when talking about cheetahs/wolves or other gracile limbed carnivorans that are put against smaller opponents but with bears and cats? No. I'd consider them exciting matchups at a "hypothetical weight parity" but with the natural huge size advantage of the bear? Absolutely not, it becomes one-sided and unfair.

[OldGreenGrolar]

The largest bear an American lion is able to be pitted against is probably an Ussuri brown bear. Even than at max weights, I will go for the male Ussuri brown bear. At parity it is probably about 50/50, the bear getting my slight vote.

[brobear]

Apr 9, 2021 4:27:38 GMT -5 OldGreenGrolar said:

The largest bear an American lion is able to be pitted against is probably an Ussuri brown bear. Even than at max weights, I will go for the male Ussuri brown bear. At parity it is probably about 50/50, the bear getting my slight vote.

I agree. Those two are pretty-much at weight-parity which makes it a debatable face-off.

[brobear]

The American lion ( Panthera atrox ) probably averaged somewhere between 500 and 600 pounds. Most of our "elite" posters, those who are intelligent, knowledgeable and educated enough to be highly respected by other "elite" posters, estimate that the Pleistocene inland grizzly averaged about 700 pounds.

I believe that these two Carnivorans probably avoided each other as much as possible. There may have been cases of a big atrox chasing a smaller adult male grizzly from a carcass. There were probably cases of a big boar grizzly chasing a smaller lion from a carcass. I doubt that either animal truly dominated the other. Both were loners.

[brobear]

WORLD OF PREHISTORIC CREATURES

It is true that the large dominant predators of ecosystems are usually avoided, but it is also true that there is competition and killing with each other when they have the opportunity, in the case of these two species they would exploit a similar ecological niche, and therefore, the Occasional clashes would not be strange. This scenario could be possible according to the 2017 study attached below.
They reveal that the American lion inhabited Patagonia
Scientists from CONICET and MACN revealed that fossil remains found in the 19th century housed in the Museum of La Plata belong to this species.
In the 19th century, scientists from different parts of the world explored caves and caverns in Patagonia in search of the possibility of finding the milodon alive, a giant sloth that could weigh up to 2 tons, actually extinct thousands of years before. Despite not being able to specify this objective, the researchers found, among other fossil remains, skeletons of a large feline species that to date has remained wrongly cataloged.
Although Santiago Roth, the first paleontologist to publish the remains of this species, considered that it was the largest South American feline and, by linking it to a mysterious animal of which there were local legends, he baptized it with the name of Iemish Listai, more Later, the researchers agreed that it was a large subspecies of jaguar (Panthera onca) that had inhabited the south of the South American continent.
Recently, researchers from the "Bernardino Rivadavia" Argentine Museum of Natural Sciences (MACN-CONICET) and the "Félix de Azara" Natural History Foundation re-analyzed the fossils preserved in the La Plata Museum and concluded that they actually correspond to the American lion (Panthera atrox), a species so far considered exclusively North American and a close relative of the Eurasian cave lion (Panthera spelaea). The results were published in the journal Comptes Rendus Palevol.
“The American lion was 25 percent larger than today's African lions (Phanthera leo), exceeding 3 meters in length and weighed more than 250 kilograms. In other words, it was much larger than the jaguars. We can also know that it was a walking species adapted to open and dry environments such as the Patagonian steppe ”, comments Federico Agnolín, CONICET associate researcher at MACN and one of the authors of the article.

Another great difference between the American lions the jaguars is that the former accumulated their prey - many times of great weight and size - in caves.
“Archaeological cave expeditions in Patagonia revealed the existence of large deposits of myodon bones. Although at first, the archaeologists considered that the skeletons must have been accumulated there by human beings, the presence in all of them of marks of sharp teeth revealed to them that they had been captured by a large feline predator, which they began to refer to as' Pantera de la Patagonia '”, recounts Nicolás Chimento, MACN researcher and first author of the article.
Along with the bones of the American lions, remains of leather were also found, which revealed that the skin of these predators was reddish in color. Something that confirms the way he is portrayed in a cave painting found in a cave in El Ceibo in the province of Santa Cruz in the 1970s.
“It is about a painting of approximately one and a half meters - much larger than those that surround it - in which you can see a large red cat with huge claws and very sharp teeth. Whoever found the painting deduced from it the fear that contemporaries had of this animal. Paintings of jaguars, on the other hand, show them much smaller and yellow in color ”, comments Agnolín.
This new finding raises the need to review other paleontological findings that occurred in the Andean area because it is very likely that the Patagonian is not the only case in which the bones of the American lion were confused with those of a jaguar.
SOURCE:
conicet.gov.ar
By Miguel Faigón
About Research:
Nicolás Chimento. MACN.
Federico Agnolin. Adjunct investigator. MACN and "Felix Azara" Natural History Foundation. 

[brobear]

Oct 18, 2021 4:42:23 GMT -5 theundertaker45 said:

The American lion ( Panthera atrox ) is a contender for the biggest member of Panthera. 

[OldGreenGrolar]

/\ A mismatch between the two animals above.

[brobear]

Oct 18, 2021 7:05:43 GMT -5 OldGreenGrolar said:

/\ A mismatch between the two animals above.

Agreed. The Atrox is big enough to put-up a fight, but the bear has the weight advantage, strength advantage, durability advantage, stamina advantage, and is comfortable bipedal should the fight go that route. 

[brobear]

American Lion - Panthera leo atrox
The American lion (Panthera leo atrox or P. atrox) — also known as the North American lion, Naegele’s giant jaguar or American cave lion — is an extinct lion of the family Felidae, endemic to North America during the Pleistocene epoch (0.34 mya to 11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 0.33 million years. It has been shown by genetic analysis to be a sister lineage to the Eurasian cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea or P. spelaea). The American lion is an extinct animal which originated in North America and went on to colonize part of South America as part of the Great American Interchange. The head-body length of the American lion is estimated to have been 1.6–2.5 m (5 ft 3 in–8 ft 2 in) and it would have stood 1.2 metres (4 ft) at the shoulder. Thus it was smaller than its contemporary competitor for prey, the giant short-faced bear, which was the largest carnivoran of North America at the time. The American lion was not as heavily built as the saber-toothed cat Smilodon populator, which may have weighed up to 360–470 kilograms (790–1,000 lb). Sorkin (2008) estimated it to weigh roughly 420 kilograms (930 lb), but new estimations show a top weight of 351 kg (774lbs.) for the largest specimen and an average weight for males of 255.65 kg (563lbs.).

[brobear]

The most common estimate of a typical male Pleistocene grizzly is 700 pounds. Therefore, the bear likely had a weight advantage of roughly 140 pounds. From our knowledge of the Amur tiger, we know that a big cat cannot and will not ambush a bear larger than himself. Even in the highly unlikely event that he does, the bear would likely overpower and kill the Atrox. 

[yz]

Forelimb Comparison Between the American lion and Homotherium Ischyrus :




Study used for the above comparison :


www.researchgate.net/publication/230843015_Postcranial_morphology_and_the_locomotor_habits_of_living_and_extinct_carnivores



As can be seen, Panthera Atrox had relatively stronger deltoid,pectoral muscles, more robust humeri, larger epicondyles and trochleas while Homotherium Ischyrus simply had relatively shorter forelimbs, longer olecrana and slightly thicker ulnae. Overall, the American lion seemed to have had been a stronger, more muscular, more robust and better grappler than the scimitar cat.

[brobear]

Quote: As can be seen, Panthera Atrox had relatively stronger deltoid,pectoral muscles, more robust humeri, larger epicondyles and trochleas while Homotherium Ischyrus simply had relatively shorter forelimbs, longer olecrana and slightly thicker ulnae. Overall, the American lion seemed to have had been a stronger, more muscular, more robust and better grappler than the scimitar cat.

*This is interesting yz.

[brobear]

American Lion - Panthera leo atrox, average weight averaged at 255.65 kg (563lbs.).
Pleistocene grizzly average ( estimated ) weight, 700 pounds.