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Post by brobear on Jan 2, 2020 13:15:38 GMT -5
The strange case of the North American tigers of the Pleistocene. Apparently some skulls were found in eastern Beringia (today's Alaska) morphologically distinct from those of the coeval American lions and recognizable instead, through morphometric analysis, as those of tigers, which would suggest that tigers were present in Alaska during the last glaciation, about 100,000 years ago (Herrington 1986, 1987). Tiger fossils have been recorded in northern Siberia, far to the north of the historical distribution, and according to Turner and Antón (1997) the species would have arrived in the Americas crossing the Bering land bridge at times of lowered sea level, during the Wisconsin glaciation according to Herrington (1987). The fact that both tigers and American lions coexisted in Alaska could also explain previous classifications that saw P. atrox close to P. tigris: simply some specimens would be morphologically similar to tigers precisely because they were tigers, and not American lions as previously thought. By comparing American fossils with modern lions and tigers, all those from the contiguous United States were recognized as lions, but those from Alaska included both lions and tigers (Herrington 1987). The scenario of a Pleistocene Alaska where two big cats like the American lion and the tiger (which in this case should be considered a new subspecies according to Herrington 1986) coexisted with scimitar-toothed cats (Homotherium) and short-faced bears (Arctodus) certainly sounds exciting, however no one seems to have written anything on the subject since 1997, and given the ease with which skeletal remains of big cats can be confused with each other, a reanalysis of the case (perhaps with a nice DNA analysis) would be very welcome. If anyone knows anything else about this strange case, I encourage him/her to write it in the comments. References: Turner, A. & Antón, M. 1997. The Big Cats and Their Fossil Relatives. Columbia University Press, New York. Herrington, S. J. 1986. Phylogenetic relationships of the wild cats of the World. Ph.D. diss., University of Kansas. -1987: Subspecies and the conservation of Panthera tigris: Preserving genetic heterogeneity. In: Tigers of the World (R. L Tilson and U. S. Seal, eds.). Noyes Publications, Park Ridge, New Jersey. pp. 51-61. Alaskan tiger BY HodariNundu  |
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Post by brobear on Jan 2, 2020 19:04:30 GMT -5
See also reply #115 - www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/213946-siberian-tigers-in-alaska/ Extinct tiger subspecies - www.solarnavigator.net/animal_kingdom/mammals/tigers.htm Tigers are uncommon in the fossil record. The distinct fossils of tigers were discovered in Pleistocene deposits – mostly in Asia. Nevertheless, tiger fossils 100,000 years old have been found in Alaska. Possibly because of a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska during the ice ages, this Alaskan tiger might be a North American population of Siberian tiger. In addition, some scientists have discovered similarities between tiger bones and those of the American lion, an extinct big cat that dominated much of North America as recently as 10,000 years ago. Some have used these observations to conclude that the American lion was a New World tiger species. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 2, 2020 19:39:21 GMT -5
From reply # 117, the link:
"I have often thought that to save the Siberian tiger from extinction a large group of them could be moved to Alaska because it's a very similar habitat, and less (??) risk from being hunted to extinction.
This guy who said this is an a....hole. so to save that cat he would move a group of Siberian tigers to Alaska? For what?? So those tigers can bother the bears and kill bear cubs? Screw that, the bears have enough trouble with tigers in Russia, they dont need tigers in Alaska. You can move tigers to Antartica for all i care. Why save them anyways? Tigers are not needed in this world. They can perish for all i care.
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Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2020 1:26:44 GMT -5
From reply # 117, the link:
"I have often thought that to save the Siberian tiger from extinction a large group of them could be moved to Alaska because it's a very similar habitat, and less (??) risk from being hunted to extinction.
This guy who said this is an a....hole. so to save that cat he would move a group of Siberian tigers to Alaska? For what?? So those tigers can bother the bears and kill bear cubs? Screw that, the bears have enough trouble with tigers in Russia, they dont need tigers in Alaska. You can move tigers to Antartica for all i care. Why save them anyways? Tigers are not needed in this world. They can perish for all i care. The citizens of Alaska would never go for that; they would revolt.  LOL But consider the tigers that did cross over Beringia into Alaska. Yes, there was an American tiger during the late Pleistocene. At first, their bones were confused with atrox bones until someone began to notice that there were two separate species of similar big cats there. There were both atrox and tigers! |
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 3, 2020 3:21:37 GMT -5
How heavy were these American tigers?
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Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2020 4:08:03 GMT -5
How heavy were these American tigers? My first thought would be the size of well-fed Amur tigers.  |
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 3, 2020 4:09:16 GMT -5
How heavy were these American tigers? My first thought would be the size of well-fed Amur tigers. Well fed Amur tigers were a lot heavier back in the past but nowhere near as big as the Ngadong tigers. |
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Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2020 4:20:52 GMT -5
How heavy were these American tigers? ( IMHO )... they would probably average roughly 500 pounds as I would guess them slightly heavier than a modern Bengal tiger. -Pure speculation. |
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Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2020 4:29:52 GMT -5
Why is information so scarce on this American tiger? ( IMHO ) because the tiger was not successful in North America. Here he found not only timber wolves, but packs of huge dire wolves. Here he had to compete with scimitar cats, saber-toothed cats, and the huge lion-like atrox. Some of these big cats were probably pack hunters. Then we must consider the giant short-faced bear who was always willing to displace this tiger from his kill.
Life in North America was simply too tough for a tiger.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 3, 2020 5:30:01 GMT -5
Why is information so scarce on this American tiger? ( IMHO ) because the tiger was not successful in North America. Here he found not only timber wolves, but packs of huge dire wolves. Here he had to compete with scimitar cats, saber-toothed cats, and the huge lion-like atrox. Some of these big cats were probably pack hunters. Then we must consider the giant short-faced bear who was always willing to displace this tiger from his kill. Life in North America was simply too tough for a tiger. |
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Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2020 5:35:18 GMT -5
Why is information so scarce on this American tiger? ( IMHO ) because the tiger was not successful in North America. Here he found not only timber wolves, but packs of huge dire wolves. Here he had to compete with scimitar cats, saber-toothed cats, and the huge lion-like atrox. Some of these big cats were probably pack hunters. Then we must consider the giant short-faced bear who was always willing to displace this tiger from his kill. Life in North America was simply too tough for a tiger. Right; the grizzly not only adapted and survived, but when all of the so-called super predators mentioned above went extinct, the grizzly is still here. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 4, 2020 7:43:06 GMT -5
To be honest, all the reports i have read in this thread do not prove 100% that the Alaskan tiger ever existed. All the reports just claim that is just a "possibility". They state that those supposedly tigers fossils found could in reality be the American lion fossils as they are very similar.
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Post by brobear on Jan 4, 2020 7:54:37 GMT -5
To be honest, all the reports i have read in this thread do not prove 100% that the Alaskan tiger ever existed. All the reports just claim that is just a "possibility". They state that those supposedly tigers fossils found could in reality be the American lion fossils as they are very similar. According to the opening post, possibly not 100% certain; but damn-near a sure thing. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 4, 2020 8:23:10 GMT -5
To be honest, all the reports i have read in this thread do not prove 100% that the Alaskan tiger ever existed. All the reports just claim that is just a "possibility". They state that those supposedly tigers fossils found could in reality be the American lion fossils as they are very similar. According to the opening post, possibly not 100% certain; but damn-near a sure thing. |
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Post by tom on Jan 5, 2020 11:20:43 GMT -5
From reply # 117, the link:
"I have often thought that to save the Siberian tiger from extinction a large group of them could be moved to Alaska because it's a very similar habitat, and less (??) risk from being hunted to extinction.
This guy who said this is an a....hole. so to save that cat he would move a group of Siberian tigers to Alaska? For what?? So those tigers can bother the bears and kill bear cubs? Screw that, the bears have enough trouble with tigers in Russia, they dont need tigers in Alaska. You can move tigers to Antartica for all i care. Why save them anyways? Tigers are not needed in this world. They can perish for all i care. Kodiak, lets tone this down a bit ok. NO need to get excited about something that will never happen. |
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Post by brobear on Jan 5, 2020 12:47:02 GMT -5
I changed the title to this topic - Pleistocene Alaskan Tiger.
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Post by brobear on Mar 15, 2020 7:25:59 GMT -5
From reply # 117, the link:
"I have often thought that to save the Siberian tiger from extinction a large group of them could be moved to Alaska because it's a very similar habitat, and less (??) risk from being hunted to extinction.
This guy who said this is an a....hole. so to save that cat he would move a group of Siberian tigers to Alaska? For what?? So those tigers can bother the bears and kill bear cubs? Screw that, the bears have enough trouble with tigers in Russia, they dont need tigers in Alaska. You can move tigers to Antartica for all i care. Why save them anyways? Tigers are not needed in this world. They can perish for all i care. The citizens of Alaska would never go for that; they would revolt. LOL But consider the tigers that did cross over Beringia into Alaska. Yes, there was an American tiger during the late Pleistocene. At first, their bones were confused with atrox bones until someone began to notice that there were two separate species of similar big cats there. There were both atrox and tigers! Quote: You can move tigers to Antartica for all i care. Why save them anyways? Tigers are not needed in this world. They can perish for all i care. A total disrespect for wildlife conservation brought on by your unexplainable hatred for an innocent wild animal. Tone down your language and keep such feelings to yourself. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 15, 2020 8:17:20 GMT -5
Yeah ok i can do that. But obviously you are having a very bad day today. Maybe you slept bad or something?
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Post by brobear on May 31, 2020 4:31:29 GMT -5
www.hanskrause.de/HKHPE/hkhpe_22_01.htm Tigers in North Siberia and Yukon/Alaska Sandra J. Herrington, Museum of Natural History, University of Kansas, Overland Park, Kansas reports about her findings under the title, “Subspecies and the Conservation of Panthera tigris: Preserving Genetic Heterogeneity”. In Ronald L. Tilson and Ulysses S. Seal (eds.) Tigers of the World 1987 Park Ridge, New Jersey, U.S.A. She states about the fossil history: “Fossils definitely assigned to P. tigris are from the lower to upper Pleistocene. These are from central Asia (Brandt 1871, Tscherski 1892), eastern and northern China (Hooijer 1947, Loukashkin 1938), northern Siberia (Tscherski 1892), Sumatra (Brongersma 1937) and Java (Brongersma 1935) and Japan, Hemmer pers. comm.). Very late Pleistocene to early Holocene fossils are recorded from the Caucasus (Vereschagin 1959) and India (Lydekker 1886). The fossils from northern Siberia ranged up to 70° latitude. These species are of somewhat uncertain affinity, and have also been allied with cave lions (P. spelaea; Heptner and Sludskii 1972). “The possible presence of tigers this far north, at a time when the Beringian subcontinent linked north-eastern Asia and north-western North America, raises the questions of why tigers did not cross the Bering land bridge, when so many other mammals did. Tigers appear to shun open country (Seidensticker 1976), and the Bering land bridge appears to have been primarily steppe tundra habitat (Fig. 2) However, there is evidence that a variety of habitats were to be found in Beringia, including wooded regions (Hopkins 1982). “There were large Panthera in North America during the Pleistocene (Fig. 3), and these were assigned to the Fossil lion species (P. atrox; now considered by some to be a sub species of P. leo or consubspecific with cave lions; e.g., Kurten 1985). However, it is not always easy to distinguish between modern lions and tigers, based only on skeletal morphology, so the possibility remained that tigers were among the Northern American Ice Age Panthera in the past (e.g. Merriam and Stock 1932). These fossils were compared with lions and tigers to determine their affinities. However, the possibility that both lions and tigers were inadvertently included in P. atrox seems never to have been considered. “In a recently completed study of these fossils, I developed a set of morphometric characters that distinguished between lions and tigers with 100% accuracy in discriminant function analyses. In addition, there were several qualitative morphological characters that could distinguish P. leo and P. tigris with a high degree of accuracy. I than compared modern lions and tigers with the fossil North American material. All fossil material from the area of the contiguous United States, an area south of the continental ice sheet during the Wisconsin glaciation, represented lions. “However, the material from Beringia included both lions and tigers. It appears that lions invaded eastern Beringia during the Illinoian glaciation, and arrived in the area of the contiguous United States during the Sangamonian interglacial. Tigers, and a different population of lions, penetrated as far as eastern Beringia during the Wisconsin glaciation in a separate dispersal event. These results suggest that other large fossil Panthera may have been misidentified, and additional evaluation may further increase the range of fossil tigers.” Herrington, S. J. (1987:53-55) “Unlike the fossil lions, the fossil tigers of Beringia were not larger than their modern counterparts. Fossil tigers from southern China from the collection of the American Museum of Natural History (Hooijer 1947) appear to be larger than modern P. tigris but only slightly so.” Herrington, S. J. 1987:56).
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 9, 2020 4:41:45 GMT -5
Alaskan tigers are probably lighter in colour compared to other tigers just like the Siberian tiger.
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LOL
