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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2022 2:55:33 GMT -5
Even large male Himalayan bears, fearing a tiger, will flee up a tree when they hear the approach of a large animal: *Note; Climbing a tree to avoid a fight with a tiger is a practical choice. The tiger wants the bear as food, but the bear has nothing to gain by fighting a tiger. A little common sense please.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2022 3:03:37 GMT -5
Large bears (in the 300-pound range) are frightened by very fresh marks of tigers or trails with a smell of a tiger - 1-2 hours ago: ( Apex Titan/Ghengis/Mountain Lord/Boogeyman - all the same person ) says; "Himalayan black bears (even pound for pound) are one of the most powerfully built and robust bear species. For a tiger to kill a large male bear of similar size, it takes a lot of skill, power and strength. As the tiger, in some cases, has to fight, grapple and subdue the large bear in order to kill it. But Amur tigers are very adept at hunting and killing large moon bears, although it's still a risky business as the moon bear is a dangerous prey, armed with formidable teeth and claws and immense strength, able to inflict some injuries to a tiger, so the tiger needs to execute his attack properly. *Yes, it takes a lot of power and strength for the tiger to ambush and kill a bear 100-pounds less in weight than himself.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2022 3:12:53 GMT -5
( Apex Titan/Ghengis/Mountain Lord/Boogeyman - all the same person ) says; "Although, even huge male black bears (according to experts & biologists) are not capable of killing a tiger in a fight. They can only offer decent resistance, but thats it. In a fair fight between a very large male black bear weighing 200+kg and an average adult male tiger, the bear is simply outclassed physically by the tiger. Hence why even the largest male Himalayan bears become victims of the tiger. *Note; By fight those "experts & biologists" are referring to an ambush attack. A tiger isn't going to stand eye-eye with a 200 kg black bear (441 pounds; even though roughly 80 to 100 pounds of that is fat for hibernation). Note also, none of those fattened bears were weighed. 200 kg is simply a shot-in-the-dark estimation.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2022 3:21:40 GMT -5
Apex Titan's Conclusions: 1) It's a fact that huge male black bears (weighing 200+kg, body length of 2 meters) fall prey to tigers (Sergey Kolchin, 2022). Black bears of all shapes and sizes are killed by tigers (L. Kerley, 2011). *Note: Wrong. None of those fattened bears were actually measured and weighed. 2) Due to predation by tigers, large male black bears highly fear tigers and will usually flee up a tree when they encounter or sense the presence of a tiger. *Note; True, the bear has nothing to gain by fighting with a tiger. 3) Large bears, in general, are frightened by very fresh marks or trails of tigers. *Note; Wrong. Some male brown bears follow tiger tracks and usurp the tiger's kill. 4) Tigers prefer to hunt Himalayan black bears in autumn, when bears have gained weight. This makes the bear more juicy and tasty for the tiger to eat, but also provides more meat. *Note; Sounds reasonable. A 300-pound moon bear becomes a slower heavier fat moon bear. 5) Tigers regularly hunt and kill Himalayan black bears all year round (especially in autumn) and individuals of all ages, genders and sizes become victims. (Tkachenko, Kolchin, L.Kerley et al; 2011, 2012, 2017, 2022). *I agree. Some Amur tigers regularly hunt bears smaller than themselves to ambush.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 15, 2022 3:31:18 GMT -5
I highly doubt that any of those "large" black bears killed by tigers weigh anywhere near 200kg. They are a heavily poached species in Asia and can't compare in numbers to American black bears, hence why they are much smaller. In Russia there are about 5000-6000 free-ranging wild Asiatic black bears (in the USA there are about 400.000, in Canada about 430.000 over a smaller area than Russia), the biggest individual in the entire history of trophy hunting weighed around 440lbs. They aren't any larger than the sloth bears you'll find in India and even a very large male black bear could be much smaller than an average Siberian tiger. In general I'd be very careful regarding all that stuff that comes the East/Asia regarding wild animals (be it any area, I don't trust those people due to what they are doing behind closed curtains; there is an interesting article on what's actually going on with Siberian tigers and the propaganda behind all the "conservation efforts", I'll link it below); they are not on the same level as the West in terms of managing populations and want to hide a lot of crimes happening in that area which would tarnish their image. www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/siberian-tigers-are-being-hunted-at-night-for-their-body-parts#:~:text=With%20just%20hundreds%20left%20in,mostly%20in%20Russia's%20Far%20East.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2022 6:23:35 GMT -5
It's a shame that the admins there never call him out on anything he posts. I suppose it's alright as long as it is pro-tiger.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2022 7:08:50 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/706/asiatic-black-bear-tiger-relations Posted by warsaw: 11 November, 2009 - In the first recorded incident of its kind in Bhutan, a Himalayan black bear was killed and eaten by a royal Bengal tiger in the Jigme Dorji national park. The carcass of the bear, with only its head, skin and paws remaining, was discovered by a team of foresters in Domenda, two days walk from Dodena in Thimphu, on November 7 at an altitude of 4,079 m. The kill has thrown up several questions on tigers being found at such high altitudes in winter, the relationship between bears and tigers in Bhutan’s wild and the implications of the tiger’s presence on the snow leopard habitat. “It’s a confirmed kill by a royal Bengal tiger, since there are canine puncture marks on the bear’s throat and spine, as well as tiger claw marks lacerating the bears face and tiger pug marks in the area,” said Phub Tshering, the JDNP park beat officer, who discovered the carcass. He said that there were also signs of struggle between the bear and the tiger with rhododendrons bushes uprooted and claw marks on trees. “Usually the Himalayan black bear is a powerful foe for any tiger and they avoid each other, but here the bear seems to be a juvenile at 2-3 years and hence did not have the muscle and fighting abilities it gets by the time it reaches its adult age of 5 years,” said Dr Sonam Wangyel, the chief forestry officer and wildlife biologist. He said that it was likely that the two animals met accidentally. Phub Tshering said that some people, who were on tsam in the area, said that they had seen the same bear feeding on berries in late October. They also noticed tiger pug marks in the same area. “We have, for the last three years, started noting multiple signs of the presence of tigers in such high altitude areas, ” said Phub Tshering. Dr Sonam Wangyel said that, though there was no conclusive proof, it is possible that due to climate change the tree line was being pushed higher giving cover to the tiger. “This may also be due to shrinking and disturbed habitat at lower altitudes and hence the mountains may be the only undisturbed areas for the tiger,” he said. However, the real impact of tigers moving higher could be on the snow leopard, whose own snowline habitat could be shrinking. He said that clear scientific evidence was needed to establish the above hypothesis. The incident has also given a peek into the relationship between the Himalayan black bear and the royal Bengal tiger. In a camera trap set up in Nabji in 2006, it was found that a bull killed by a tiger was also being fed on by a bear at alternate intervals. “One day, the bear took away the whole carcass and the camera captured a bewildered look on the face of the tiger when it came back to feed again. The bear could be benefiting from the tigers kills,” said Dr Sonam. He said in the wild carnivores would try to eliminate competition and the bear killed may have been a potential competitor. “Though it happens, this is rare incident since the tiger usually goes after smaller, less aggressive and weaker prey,” he said. He also said that it was possible that tigers would be coming to these heights to cross into other valleys and that more of them were being detected due to better detection devices. Old data show that around 115-150 tigers are found in Bhutan on the basis of sightings.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 15, 2022 7:57:12 GMT -5
I suspect they don't care as much as they used to; they are also aging and spend much less time on the forum than let's say 5 years ago.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2022 8:28:46 GMT -5
Quote: "... the biggest individual (Asiatic black bear) in the entire history of trophy hunting weighed around 440lbs. They aren't any larger than the sloth bears you'll find in India and even a very large male black bear could be much smaller than an average Siberian tiger. *Note: WF's resident fanboy talks as if every full-grown moon bear is a 200 kg record breaker. Typical weights: Sun bear - sow: 98 pounds. Sun bear - boar: 120 pounds. Sri Lankan sloth bear - sow: 150 pounds. Sri Lankan sloth bear - boar: 230 pounds. Indian sloth bear - sow: 165 pounds Indian sloth bear - boar: 242 pounds. Andean bear - sow: 165 pounds. Andean bear - boar: 308 pounds. Giant panda - sow: 220 pounds. Giant panda - boar: 250 pounds Asiatic black bear - sow: 157 pounds. Asiatic black bear - boar: 270 pounds. American black bear - sow: 162.13 pounds American black bear - boar: 272.03 pounds
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 15, 2022 9:56:10 GMT -5
brobear There only is a handful of Ussuri black bears weighed; 3 adult males caught in January/February/November averaged 124.67kg or 274.85lbs while 3 adult females caught in May/October/November averaged 71.33kg or 157.26lbs. For the largest subspecies of this bear species these weights are rather low. 125kg average and 200kg maximum are the numbers of a medium-sized American black bear population. And I wouldn't freak out at a tiger being able to hunt them as they are smaller in all dimensions.
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Post by brobear on Nov 16, 2022 0:37:36 GMT -5
Bengal tiger vs moon bear. The fanboy said: " Tigers regularly hunt and kill Himalayan black bears all year round (especially in autumn) and individuals of all ages, genders and sizes become victims." Yes, this is true; Tigers stalk and ambush moon bears, including even those huge males only 100-pounds below the weight of the tiger.
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Post by brobear on Nov 16, 2022 2:48:12 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_black_bear The largest Asian black bear on record allegedly weighed 200 kg (440 lb). Zoo-kept specimens can weigh up to 225 kg (496 lb) *Note; to say that 440-pounds is a normal weight for moon bears is like saying that 1,600-pounds is a normal weight for Kodiak bears, or like saying that 800-pounds is a normal weight for American black bears. Ridiculous.
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Post by brobear on Nov 22, 2022 8:55:11 GMT -5
Doing the math; The average full-grown male Amur tiger - 447.5 pounds. The average full-grown male moon bear - 270 pounds. So, when the tiger ambushes the "large" bear, the tiger actually has a weight advantage of 177.5 pounds. I feel certain that if we were to do the math of biggest tiger vs biggest moon bear a similar conclusion would be reached.
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Post by brobear on Nov 28, 2022 0:30:35 GMT -5
Here is a popular image of a moon bear; an Ussuri Asiatic black bear to be exact. The tiger fans claim this bear to be a 200 kg or 440-pound-plus monster of a black bear. But, how far back behind the bear is the hunter sitting? 6 inches, one foot, three feet, or more? Also, the bear appears to be deliberately positioned so as to make him appear very broad. Also, this is very likely a bear fattened for his long Winter sleep. Regardless of the 'old hunter's tricks', I do believe this to be a very large moon bear; probably in the upper 300-pound range.
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Post by brobear on Nov 28, 2022 0:50:54 GMT -5
Two big adult tigers vs one much smaller Asiatic black bear. Real fight or staged with the use of tamed captive animals? I'm unsure. After watching again, I'm certain that this video is a product of Hollywood. The voice is familiar from the old Disney nature shows. Here is featured, Papa tiger, Mama tiger, and the kids. But, looking past the playful animals we can clearly see the normal and natural size comparison between the tigers and the moon bear. We can clearly see that the moon bear is a same-size bear to his cousin, the sloth bear. No size difference.
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Post by brobear on Dec 12, 2022 1:31:10 GMT -5
According to Ivan Seredkin the heaviest moon bear was said to have weighed 205 kg. No doubt weighed during the Autumn months. Nevertheless; we have now established one Ussuri brown bear as the record-sized moon bear at 451.95 pounds. ________________________________________________________________ I would round this off and say that 452 pounds is the absolute maximum size for a moon bear. Nevertheless, an Ussuri black bear (largest subspecies of moon bear) weighing within the 400 pound range is uncommon. There is no doubt in my mind that a tiger will always size-up his bear-prey before executing an ambush attack. He will never ambush a bear larger than himself.
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Post by brobear on Dec 23, 2022 13:15:44 GMT -5
Just as I thought; a large male moon bear, which can (uncommonly) weigh over 400 pounds, is able to fend-off a tiger.
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Post by Montezuma on Jan 8, 2023 19:22:10 GMT -5
"Usually the Himalayan black bear is a powerful foe for any tiger and they avoid each other, but here the bear seems to be a juvenile at 2-3 years and hence did not have the muscle and fighting abilities it gets by the time it reaches its adult age of 5 years,” said Dr Sonam Wangyel, the chief forestry officer and wildlife biologist. He said that it was likely that the two animals met accidentally."
bigcatrescue.org/himalayan-bear-killed-by-tiger/
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Post by brobear on Jan 28, 2023 16:38:17 GMT -5
Himalayan black bear (Ursus thibetanus), also called Asiatic black bear or (my choice) moon bear. A tiger is not going to voluntarily go face-to-face with a really big 440 pound moon bear. These bears, which are pretty-much equal in size to the adult female Ussuri brown bear, are too dangerous a foe for a tiger to attack other than by ambush. In fact, I am confident in my belief that these bears are at the pinnacle size that a tiger might decide to risk in an ambush attack on a bear. Only the biggest tiger might dare such an ambush; a tiger certainly heavier than the bear. On the flip-side, the moon bear, if he sees the tiger and has time, will usually scurry up a tree. He has nothing to gain from a fight with a tiger.
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Post by Montezuma on Mar 23, 2023 23:00:09 GMT -5
"Tigers dominate asiatic black bears" is a phrase often told by tigerfans due to the studies showing that black bears are eaten by them and they fear tigers. Although its true yet to which extent? Do tigers really dominate them and how? Starting with the quote that tigers regularly eat black bears, is oftenly used but very incorrect. Bears, are an atypical prey for tiger and arn't on tiger's preferred menu are boars, roe deer and sika deer. Consuming someone does mean you dominate it e.g. the lizards consume on crocodile eggs does straightly translate that lizards dominate crocodile. Most evidence on predation is scat analysis which is doubtful due to the scavenging natural instinct. For example, Tkachenko accounts an event where a male tiger killed a black bear whivh was later scavenged by a tigress: where a scat analysis would stimulate a image of two black bears killed respectively, whilst the hunted was only one. And the most note worthy thing is that " Only a few male tigers can, to a certain extent, specialize in bear hunting (Tkachenko, 2008). For most tigers, the bear is not a frequent prey, and not every encounter can end with an attack"which means even black bears arn't that easy prey and few tigers actually effect them and all these bears, as a rule, are taken by the ambush strategy and predation become intense in extreme conditions when tiger's natural prey is absent. " In addition to humans, the black Manchurian bear has only one enemy - the tiger, which, in the absence of other prey, hunts for it, hides it in thickets and rocks and rushes from above, trying to sit on its back and bite its neck".Although the tiger is capable of killing a black bear of any size (from cub to adult) and has, yet most of the bears are youngs, females or cubs. "Not all the Himalaya bears killed by tigers, especially young, could be found out because of short-term stay on them меченых tigers. V.S.Khramtsov (1993) informs, that tigers predation on young Himalaya black bears is more often."" Tigers are known to catch and kill bears for food. Usually these are young female Himalayan bears" (David meanwell 2022)
"A she-bear or a young bear often becomes the prey of the "king of the Manchurian taiga"."The reason is that adults (especially males) are rarely taken by tigers. Although an adult male tiger can kill an adult male black bear by ambush (and has done) yet there is no evidence of a male tiger killing, even by ambush, a very large black bear weighing +200kg or of its size. The reason for that could be explained since " Usually the Himalayan black bear is a powerful foe for any tiger and they avoid each other."Meaning black bears are also avoided by tigers, silghtly balancing the dominating intereaction. When male black bears gain maturity so they become less vulnerable to tigers as they become capable of fighting-off: " but the old male does not give up easily and sells his life dearly"
"bear seems to be a juvenile at 2-3 years and hence did not have the muscle and fighting abilities it gets by the time it reaches its adult age of 5 years,” said Dr Sonam Wangyel, the chief forestry officer and wildlife biologist."
"Adults, actively defending themselves, are also capable of resisting the tiger (Yudin and Yudina, 2009)."
According to baikov, the himalayan black bear is diligently (not easily) hunted: From the book "Big Game Hunting in Manchuria" N.A Baikov. " Большого бураго медвeдя тигръ не трогаетъ, но гималайскаго преслeдуетъ усердно"
"Most often, the victims of the striped were one-year-old individuals. The tiger confidently defeats the Himalayan bear until the age of three."However, black bears prefer to climb up in trees rather than fighting back which is for non-mature males since they can fight back tigers in face-offs. " The Himalayan bear is an easier prey for an adult tiger, but if danger is detected in time, it escapes in the trees (Bromley, 1965; Khramtsov, Zhivotchenko, 1981, etc.). Adults, actively defending themselves, are also capable of resisting the tiger (Yudin and Yudina, 2009). "However, what about the generally stated "black bears fearing tigers and changing routes"? Well, it varies since " The reaction of Himalayan bears to tiger tracks varies. Usually, adult bears show no visible signs of anxiety"
".DESPITE ACTIVE PERSUIT ON THE PART OF TIGERS, HIMALAYAN BEARS AT KHEKHTSIR WERE USUALLY NOT AFRAID OF FRESH TRACKS, WENT ALONG THEIR PATHS."whereas sub-adult or females react differently. However, if black bears are so much afraid of tigers, so are their population number or daily activity pattern numbers effected? Is that tree-dwelling nature solely a result of tiger's fear? Well lets see. Animals, when are dominated show some reactions: like the areas where tigers increase, leopard populations are discouraged and increasing tigers threatens leopard numbers. However, in sikhote-alin, increasing tiger numbers don't reduce black bear populations "The predation of the tiger during its sedentary life on Khekhtsir (1992–2007) did not lead to a decrease in the number of bears.
"Indeed, the strong competition and antagonism (as it is expressed by Kucherenko) between the 3 predators would exclude the possibility of their simultaneous presence on the same territory. The presence of larger predators will hardly restrict the population of the smaller Asian black bear with very different way of life. This means that the decline of the Asian black bear population is caused by a reason other than simple competition with the larger predators."
instead, surprisingly, black bears number also show a good growth ". The Sikhote-Alin mountain system is the most promising area for conservation of the jointly inhabited wild populations of Himalayan and brown bears on the Asian continent".Pikunov D.G., Seryodkin I.V If black bears feared too much tigers, why wouldn't their numbers falled like leopards? Why weren't they eleminated as were wolves by tigers? Why wouldn't they change their areas to avoid tigers? Asiatic black bears, unlike the subordinate leopards, would also scavenge on tiger's kill or even chase smaller ones. Showing that whereas tigers appear very deleterious to leopards, their presence can benefit black bears. russia-wcs-org.translate.goog/en-us/About-Us/Publications/Tiger-Monograph.aspx?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en Apart from tiger's predation fear, black bears also tree up to feed and to avoid another larger and formidable predator, the brown bear. It is to be noted that black bears had done area selection to avoid brown bears by occuping higher areas " Asiatic black bears avoided brown bears by occupying higher elevations and being more diurnal where they coexisted."Whilst, interestingly, it hasn't adopted an areas to avoid tigers since siberian tigers also occupy higher elevations. If black bears were so afraid of tigers, then why would they share a similar elevation with the tiger? Why would they moved to a separate elevation to avoid? Black bears become more diurnal to avoid brown bears but not tigers. Why don't they adjust specific patterns to avoid tigers as they did for brown bears? " Asiatic black bears and brown bears are competitors in this area, but they can coexist by changing their daily activity patterns"So, as the proof shows brown bears seems to effect black bear's life patterns (daily activity + residencal area) more than tigers meaning tiger arn't way dominant over them. Tigers avoid black bears avoid each other, however tigers are recultant against mature male asiatic black bears ehile would in lack of prey, attack subadults and females. Adult males, or perhaps adult females, show no fear of tiger tracks while juveniles do. Overall, tigers arn't really dominant over asiatic black bears. Any thoughts? Link to quoted sources:- russia-wcs-org.translate.goog/en-us/About-Us/Publications/Tiger-Monograph.aspx?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=enwww-hab-kp-ru.translate.goog/daily/27477/4684605/?fromrss=582&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wappbooks.google.com.ar/books?id=Kwy2AAAAIAAJ&q=Kostoglod%20bear/tiger&dq=Kostoglod%20bear/tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV-sjP16j6AhXHqpUCHczwAVYQ6AF6BAgCEAMelementy.ru/nauchno-populyarnaya_biblioteka/434314/Gimalayskie_medvedi_Bolshogo_Khekhtsirawww.researchgate.net/publication/302590565_MARK_TREES_AND_INDIRECT_COMMUNICATION_BETWEEN_BEARS_URSUS_ARCTOS_URSUS_THIBETANUS_AND_TIGER_PANTHERA_TIGRIS_ON_THE_SIKHOTE-ALINwww.ohotniki.ru/amp/editions/huntingfishing/article/2008/04/28/42940-medvedi-dalnego-vostoka.htmlkuenselonline.com/news/?file=article&sid=13949esj-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1007/s11284-010-0723-1www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/12/10/1262www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.upi.com/amp/Top_News/US/2020/05/08/Introducing-wolves-leads-to-fewer-wildland-coyotes-researchers-find/8291588874374/&ved=2ahUKEwjonN6kzu_9AhWqVqQEHR8eBx4QFnoECCoQAQ&authuser=2&usg=AOvVaw12tKukYnpQbMWBLYuwRHXx
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