smedz
Ursus abstrusus
Recent Graduate
Posts: 410
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Post by smedz on Aug 31, 2019 11:26:50 GMT -5
A big random question that came into my mind. What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 31, 2019 16:01:32 GMT -5
Ok, for a fight to be fair it has to be at same weight, and these 2 animals overlap, they can both reach 350 lbs. so lets say we have both specimens at 300 lbs. it looks like the Thylacoleo had the strongest bite force for its size, also, it looks like it could fight on hind legs with the support of the tail, just like kangaroos, this means it used its forelimbs to fight. It was a ambush predator that took down larger prey (this though does not constitute an advantage in a face to face fight). so, we have zero accounts of Pandas killing anything as they are basically totally Bamboo eaters 99% (again, does not mean anything for a head on fight). Pandas are only known to have fend off Snow leopards. They are not much of a fighter. So based on all that i have read, in my opinion, in a strictly head on battle, the Thylacoleo takes this match 7-8 out of 10.
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Post by King Kodiak on Aug 31, 2019 20:32:52 GMT -5
How about you Smedz, whats your opinion?
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smedz
Ursus abstrusus
Recent Graduate
Posts: 410
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Post by smedz on Aug 31, 2019 20:50:50 GMT -5
How about you Smedz, whats your opinion? I'll get to it tomorrow sometime.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 1, 2019 7:17:18 GMT -5
While I diet doesn't always indicate an animal will always win in a fight and the giant panda does have powerful jaws and aggressive forearms as well, it is the most sluggish of all bears and would probably lose to the thylaceo/ masupial lion which also has powerful forearms and the most powerful jaws out of any land mammal pound to pound.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 8:29:52 GMT -5
What can the poor Panda even do though? It even has reduced Canines crown and according to Kupczik 2012, its Canines roots are also reduced and thus are not suitable for sustaining its high bite force or for grappling with preys: "Although the bite force estimates of the present and other studies, as well as the robust mandibular and cranial morphology of the bamboo-feeding A. melanoleuca indicate a forceful canine bite (Sacco & Van Valkenburgh, 2004; Christiansen, 2007; Christiansen & Wroe, 2007), the small root size of our female specimen may also suggest that the canines of A. melanoleuca are not adapted to sustain high bite forces. " And as Helarctos pointed out, the Panda also has low metabolic rate and thus, rather sluggish. The Panda is well known for its high bite force, but even in that regard, i don't think it could surpass the Marsupial lion. Thylacoleo's skull and dentition are formidable
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 1, 2019 8:45:07 GMT -5
Well pandas might have the strongest crushing bite pound to pound but they do not have the carnassial pressure a polar bear possesses. The polar bear has the highest carnasial pressure out of all bears as it has the sharpest teeth. Back to topic, Verdugo, that is a nice picture of a thylacoleo there.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 1, 2019 8:52:11 GMT -5
Ok so basically i see we all agree here then. I think we should just leave the Panda bears for hugging and not fighting.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 1, 2019 13:15:17 GMT -5
Verdugo:
“It even has reduced Canines crown and according to Kupczik 2012, its Canines roots are also reduced and thus are not suitable for sustaining its high bite force or for grappling with preys”
Correct me if i am wrong Verdugo, but what am understanding in this phrase above is that the panda’s reduced canines crown and reduced canines roots would prevent him from properly using its teeth while grappling another animal in a fight? This means its bite force would be useless. So this case is similar to the Smilodon populator, who would not have been able to use its long canines while grappling in a fight correct?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 21:58:22 GMT -5
Correct me if i am wrong Verdugo, but what am understanding in this phrase above is that the panda’s reduced canines crown and reduced canines roots would prevent him from properly using its teeth while grappling another animal in a fight? This means its bite force would be useless.
Correct. Not that their Canines would be completely useless but their Canines would constraint them in some certain ways. If a Panda tries to grapple and shake to violently with its jaw, the Canines may break off. The Canines crowns are also short, stubby, and rather blunt so they are not suitable to cause a lot of damages either. It's like trying to stab someone really hard with a very short and dull knife. Panda has to be one of, if not the most specialised Bear ever. There are many extant and extinct Bears who are also highly herbivorous such as Spectacled or Cave bear but even those Bears do not have reduced Canines to the extent seen in Panda. Pandas start to reduce their Canines simply because Canines do not serve many purposes for their lifestyles and they no longer need it.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 2, 2019 7:01:26 GMT -5
Thanks Verdugo. Now its very clear. That is just one more disadvantage for the panda. One more reason to favor the Thylacoleo.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 11, 2019 8:27:16 GMT -5
Sloth Bear - Melursus ursinus The sloth bear, also known as the labiated bear, is a nocturnal insectivorous species of bear found wild within the Indian subcontinent. The sloth bear evolved from ancestral brown bears during the Pleistocene and shares features found in insect-eating mammals through convergent evolution. The population isolated in Sri Lanka is considered as a subspecies. Unlike brown and black bears, sloth bears have lankier builds, long shaggy coats that form a mane around the face, long sickle shaped claws, and a specially adapted lower lip and palate used for sucking insects. Sloth bears breed during spring and early summer and give birth near the beginning of winter. They feed on termites, honeybee colonies and fruits. Sloth bears sometimes attack humans that encroach on their territory. Sloth bears adults are a medium-sized species though weight can range variously from 55 to 105 kg (121 to 231 lb) in typically-sized females and from 80 to 145 kg (176 to 320 lb) in typically-sized males. Exceptionally large specimens of females can scale up to 124 kg (273 lb) and males up to 192 kg (423 lb). Marsupial Lion - Thylacoleo carnifex .The Marsupial Lion is the largest meat-eating mammal to have lived in Australia, and one of the largest marsupial carnivores the world has ever seen. It would have hunted animals - including the giant Diprotodon - in the forests, woodlands, shrublands and river valleys, as well as around waterholes. The closest living relatives of this fierce carnivore are the plant-eating Wombats and Koala. Pound for pound, it had the strongest bite of any mammal species living or extinct; a 100 kg (220 lb) individual had a bite comparable to that of a 250 kg (550 lb) African Lion and is thought to have hunted large animals such as diprotodonts and giant kangaroos. It was the most specialised marsupial carnivore to have ever existed and had extremely strong forelimbs, with retractable claws, a trait previously unseen in marsupials. Its strong forelimbs, retracting claws and incredibly powerful jaws mean that it may have been possible for it to climb trees and perhaps to carry carcasses to keep the kill for itself (similar to the leopard today). The Marsupial Lions were 75 cm (29 in) at the shoulder and about 150 cm (75 in) long from head to tail. They averaged 101 to 130 kg (223 to 287 lb), and individuals reaching 124 to 160 kg (273 to 353 lb) were common. They are quite comparable to female lions and tigers in general size. From Carnivora. carnivora.net/sloth-bear-v-marsupial-lion-t7462.html
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Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2019 9:18:49 GMT -5
I would wager ( not too much ) on the bear. However, we have no way of knowing just how ferocious a fighter this critter was.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 11, 2019 16:15:02 GMT -5
The masupial lion has powerful forearms and the most powerful jaws pound to pound. I am unsure of its grappling abilities.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 12, 2019 5:46:13 GMT -5
Huge Marsupial Lion Terrorized Ancient Australia, Sat Adorably on Its Tail www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/64289-marsupial-lion-anatomy.htmlThis is a hard one guys, i dont know. It looks like the Marsupial lion could have had the ability to carry carcasses up trees. But it was an ambush predator. Both at same weight, 220 lbs, i might lean towards Thylacoleo here, but barely, maybe 6/10.
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smedz
Ursus abstrusus
Recent Graduate
Posts: 410
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Post by smedz on Jul 5, 2020 16:33:53 GMT -5
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 5, 2020 17:07:24 GMT -5
Great find Smedz. The Marsupial lion used its teeth to hold prey and its large claws to kill. Although this method most likely worked by ambushing its prey, its still very good. So this just further confirms my opinion that the Marsupial would defeat a sloth bear, in a head on fight, at same weight, at least 6/10 times.
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Post by brobear on Jul 5, 2020 17:12:22 GMT -5
www.sci-news.com/paleontology/marsupial-lion-thylacoleo-carnifex-hunting-style-04116.html Marsupial Lion Thylacoleo carnifex Had Unique Hunting Style, Paleontologists Say. An international team of paleontologists has proposed that an extinct animal called the marsupial lion (Thylacoleo carnifex) hunted in a very unique way – by using its teeth to hold prey before dispatching them with its huge claws. It was 5 feet (1.5 m) long, 2.5 feet (75 cm) tall, and weighed between 175 and 220 pounds (80-100 kg) – making it the largest carnivorous marsupial to have ever lived on Earth. As its name suggests, the marsupial lion has long been presumed to be a cat-like predator, despite lacking large canine teeth – instead it had large, protruding incisors that have been suggested to be canine substitutes. The prehistoric creature was a powerful marsupial but, as other paleontologists have noted, it had limbs of different proportions to a lion, suggesting it was not a fast. It also sported a very large claw on its hand, similar to the dew claw of cats but of a much bigger size, with a bony sheath foisted on a mobile first digit (thumb). Dr. Christine Janis from the University of Bristol and Brown University and her colleagues from the University of Malaga looked at the elbow joints of a large number of living mammals. This showed a strong association between the anatomy of the humerus (upper arm bone) where it articulates with the forelimb and the locomotor behavior of mammals. Animals more specialized for running (like a dog) have a joint indicating movement limited for back and forwards, stabilizing their bodies on the ground, while animals more specialized for climbing (like a monkey) have a joint that allows for rotation of the hand around the elbow. Modern cats, which (unlike dogs) use their forelimbs to grapple with their prey, have an elbow joint of intermediate shape. “If the marsupial lion had hunted like a lion using its forelimbs to manipulate its prey, then its elbow joint should have been lion-like, Dr. Janis said. “But, surprisingly, it a unique elbow-joint among living predatory mammals – one that suggested a great deal of rotational capacity of the hand, like an arboreal mammal, but also features not seen in living climbers, that would have stabilized the limb on the ground (suggesting that it was not simply a climber).” The team proposed that this unique elbow joint, in combination with the huge ‘dew claw’ on a mobile thumb, would have allowed the marsupial lion to use that claw to kill its prey. In contrast the large incisors were blunt. While the animal had massive shearing teeth in the back of its jaw, the incisors appear to have functioned better for gripping than for piercing flesh in a killing bite. The scientists concluded that, unlike a real lion, which holds its prey with its claws, and kills it with its teeth, the marsupial lion – unlike any living predator – used its teeth to hold its prey, while it dispatched it with its huge claws. The team’s research was published in the journal Paleobiology.
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Post by brobear on Jul 5, 2020 17:21:20 GMT -5
( IMO ) the "marsupial lion" was not known for his speed. The sloth bear has a slight weight advantage; but no game-changer. The marsupial has a stronger bite, but uses its jaws to hold onto his prey. Almost certainly this marsupial was an ambush predator. Both the marsupial and the sloth bear fight with their claws. Probably both are excellent grapplers. Thylacoleo carnifex appears to be the first and the last predator to fight and kill by holding-on with his teeth while killing with his claws. The sloth bear will be fighting with both teeth and claws. Since this fighting and killing technique seems to never have been duplicated before or after this marsupial, I will give the sloth bear 6 out of 10 in a fair face-off.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 5, 2020 17:29:03 GMT -5
Well, remember that we are talking about a weight parity fight. We already know the animal with a weight advantage would win most times. Also, how many animals have sloth bears killed? There are basically zero accounts. Only 1 "supposedly" of it killing a bengal tiger, but not confirmed.
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