|
Post by brobear on Dec 16, 2019 6:29:57 GMT -5
Report:
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 14, 2020 9:05:56 GMT -5
We all know that there were those old story-tellers during the 19th century telling whoppers for entertainment. Now, I do believe that most stories told were true or at least partly so. Old newspapers would print stories and "color then up" to sell their papers. Some true, some complete fiction. These tales of cougars killing bears are without any doubts pure fiction. These tall-tales go against the nature of cats. No cougar in the 20th century ( or 21st ) has ever been spotted ambushing a full-grown bear of any species. In fact, a cougar will relinquish his kill to even a black bear.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Jan 14, 2020 9:16:18 GMT -5
Ok but if those were fiction stories, than the zoologists who wrote the book, Storer and Tevis should not have put them in that book. You get my point? So either we believe the whole book or we dont believe the whole book, we cant just choose which part to believe. If we do that, we will be acused of being a hypocrite and with good cause.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 14, 2020 9:55:40 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracy_I._Storer Tracy Irwin Storer (1889–1973) was an American zoologist known for his contributions to the wildlife of California and the ecology of the Sierra Nevada.[1] He was a professor of zoology at the University of California, Davis for over 30 years. He served as president of several biological societies, including the Cooper Ornithological Club (as a three-time president), Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, the Society of Mammalogists, and the Wildlife Society, and was a fellow of the California Academy of Sciences which in 1968 awarded him the Fellow's Medal, the Academy's highest honor.[2][3] Storer was born in San Francisco, California August 17, 1889. He attended the University of California, Berkeley where he earned a B.S. in 1912, followed by a M.S. in 1913. From 1914 to 1923 he worked in the Museum of Vertebrate Zoology as an assistant curator of birds and field-naturalist. He worked with the ecologist Joseph Grinnell, with whom he co-authored Animal Life in the Yosemite and The Game Birds of California. Storer received his PhD from U.C. Berkeley in 1921, and in 1923 joined the faculty at the University of California, Davis, where he was the first professor of zoology and later founded the school's Department of Zoology. He retired in 1956 and was given a Doctor of Letters degree by U.C. Davis in 1960. A building on the campus, Storer Hall, is named after him. Storer died in Davis, California on June 25, 1973. Tracy I. Storer and Lloyd P. Tevis Jr. were both Professors of Zoology at the University of California, Davis. Tracy Storer co-authored Sierra Nevada Natural History (California, 1963). Rick Bass is the author of The Lost Grizzlies (1996).
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 14, 2020 9:58:56 GMT -5
Ok but if those were fiction stories, than the zoologists who wrote the book, Storer and Tevis should not have put them in that book. You get my point? So either we believe the whole book or we dont believe the whole book, we cant just choose which part to believe. If we do that, we will be acused of being a hypocrite and with good cause. They did the only form of research possible. They did not live during the days of giant grizzly bears in California. They researched such sources as old newspapers; as you do. * Note: a thought: grizzly bears were not loved by the people. They were dangerous to people and their livestock. Also, the Spanish people have a great respect for bulls ( why I cannot answer )... but the bear was not the favorite; therefore the tales should not be biased for the bear.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 1:23:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 1:30:39 GMT -5
I am not here to put down a cougar which is a powerful animal, it is still dominated by the larger American black bear. Unless of course there are smaller grizzlies in some parts of USA?
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 15, 2020 3:06:50 GMT -5
I am not here to put down a cougar which is a powerful animal, it is still dominated by the larger American black bear. Unless of course there are smaller grizzlies in some parts of USA? It's making sense now. The Pecos, in Texas shows it was possibly a Mexican grizzly. If you read about the historical grizzlies of the N. American frontier, the Mexican grizzly was the least aggressive of grizzlies. Add to this, " a medium-sized grizzly"... a sub-adult or a she-bear. Probably a 2 or 3 year old bear. Even snow leopards have been known to kill bears of this age. *Fact: no full-grown boar grizzly was ever killed by a cougar.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 3:08:41 GMT -5
I remember the account of a snow leopard killing a sub adult Himalayan brown bear (red bear).
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 3:35:17 GMT -5
The Mexican grizzly is probably the red bear of the grizzlies.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 15, 2020 3:56:05 GMT -5
The Mexican grizzly is probably the red bear of the grizzlies. In a sense, according to the old pioneers, you are right. They spoke of the big prairie grizzlies that fed heavily on bison. Mostly feeding on wolf kills but also killing bison calves. Sometimes, a grizzly would kill an adult bison. Those bears were larger than the Rocky Mountain grizzly, such as the Yellowstone bears. We have strong evidence now that those old pioneers were right. The record inland grizzly skull was found by a hunter estimated to be from that era. They also spoke of the California grizzly of the Sierra Nevada Mountains as being the largest and most ferocious bears on the North American continent.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Jan 15, 2020 5:42:26 GMT -5
Reply # 123
But the bear didnt die correct? At least i dont read this. Yeah, looks like a subadult or a female.
This guy ML is funny, we have more than 80 accounts of tigers getting killed by other animals, including leopards, even by dholes and a bulldog which weights much less than a puma, lmao.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 17:30:54 GMT -5
I am not here to put down a cougar which is a powerful animal, it is still dominated by the larger American black bear. Unless of course there are smaller grizzlies in some parts of USA? It's making sense now. The Pecos, in Texas shows it was possibly a Mexican grizzly. If you read about the historical grizzlies of the N. American frontier, the Mexican grizzly was the least aggressive of grizzlies. Add to this, " a medium-sized grizzly"... a sub-adult or a she-bear. Probably a 2 or 3 year old bear. Even snow leopards have been known to kill bears of this age. *Fact: no full-grown boar grizzly was ever killed by a cougar.The grizzly was a 'he' so that bear might be probably a sub adult which has recently left its mother. Even female she bears (grizzly and American black bears) are usually dominant over cougars.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 17:33:07 GMT -5
Reply # 123
But the bear didnt die correct? At least i dont read this. Yeah, looks like a subadult or a female.
This guy ML is funny, we have more than 80 accounts of tigers getting killed by other animals, including leopards, even by dholes and a bulldog which weights much less than a puma, lmao.
I think the bear did die in the end as the account is from the book 'Great Bear of Almanac' by Gary Brown. I have read the whole book before and seen these accounts on the late AVA as well. Still, its the least aggressive of the grizzlies and probably a sub adult.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 17:35:52 GMT -5
The Mexican grizzly is probably the red bear of the grizzlies. In a sense, according to the old pioneers, you are right. They spoke of the big prairie grizzlies that fed heavily on bison. Mostly feeding on wolf kills but also killing bison calves. Sometimes, a grizzly would kill an adult bison. Those bears were larger than the Rocky Mountain grizzly, such as the Yellowstone bears. We have strong evidence now that those old pioneers were right. The record inland grizzly skull was found by a hunter estimated to be from that era. They also spoke of the California grizzly of the Sierra Nevada Mountains as being the largest and most ferocious bears on the North American continent. Would it be safe to say the barren ground grizzlies are the Tibetan blue bears of the grizzlies?
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Jan 15, 2020 17:54:10 GMT -5
Reply # 123
But the bear didnt die correct? At least i dont read this. Yeah, looks like a subadult or a female.
This guy ML is funny, we have more than 80 accounts of tigers getting killed by other animals, including leopards, even by dholes and a bulldog which weights much less than a puma, lmao.
I think the bear did die in the end as the account is from the book 'Great Bear of Almanac' by Gary Brown. I have read the whole book before and seen these accounts on the late AVA as well. Still, its the least aggressive of the grizzlies and probably a sub adult. I have the book, i dont remember that account, i will check again.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Jan 15, 2020 19:31:30 GMT -5
I just checked, that account is not from The great bear almanac. The only account in this book between bears and mountain lions is this:
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Jan 15, 2020 19:37:58 GMT -5
Reply # 134, the indians of California told stories of how the pumas normally won. But if the pumas were winning 150 years ago, then why not now? I believe there is not 1 account of a puma killing an adult male grizzly bear (or any bear), in the last 150 years, thats very weird. What changed? Grizzlies are even smaller now then in California, so if pumas were winning before, why not now? Does not make sense. Obviously, just some unreliable stories told by those indians, most likely "anecdotes" which we already covered what that means.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 19:51:04 GMT -5
I just checked, that account is not from The great bear almanac. The only account in this book between bears and mountain lions is this:
It is an anecdotal hunting account but if the grizzly was a small subadult, it is likely this can happen.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 15, 2020 20:14:42 GMT -5
|
|