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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 23, 2018 6:49:07 GMT -5
Page 122: rock art, brown bear and cave bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 25, 2018 20:32:17 GMT -5
Coat of arms of the Teufel family
The devil in bear form
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 26, 2018 21:21:39 GMT -5
Page 128: The medieval bear had a more carnivorous diet than todays brown bear, it was taller and heavier, its coat was darker, its fur stiffer, and its claws sharper.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 27, 2018 21:04:41 GMT -5
Page 137: the Romans imported lions in large quantities from north Africa or Asia minor, sometimes from even farther, for the circus games.
note: North African lions were Barbary lions.
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Post by brobear on Dec 28, 2018 2:24:47 GMT -5
Michel Pastoureau (born 17 June 1947) is a French professor of medieval history and an expert in Western symbology. *Note: He is a highly respected European historian. As he continuously discovered more and more accounts of the importance of the bear in ancient European culture, he decided to indulge into intense research on the subject, which took years to accomplish. The book is factual. Dude please: read the rules.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 28, 2018 5:52:08 GMT -5
Funny, there is absolutely no better source than Michel Pastoureau, all you have to do is look at his credentials. Does not get much better than this. Looks like a lion fan is hurt, lmao. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Pastoureau
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 28, 2018 7:52:29 GMT -5
And this is exactly why animal debates are funny and are a waste of time. You can post any source you have, a decorated french professor and researcher, a biologist, a newspaper account, a book account, a zoologist, a scientific study, a researcher, and the other side will say “ no, its fake” or “no, invalid source” and this goes for all sides, bears, lions, and tigers. No one believes the reports against their animal but everyone believes all reports that favour their animal. Funny huh? That is why debates are just a waste of time and fingers.
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Post by brobear on Dec 28, 2018 8:11:58 GMT -5
I will believe and accept facts from zoologists, animal trainers, and park rangers. In fact, I have often been greatly surprised at just how right I have been. With all honesty, I expected just about as many reports of big cats defeating the grizzly as the bear winning. After learning of the grizzlies of Russia, I expected to hear of fights with tigers winning nearly as often as the great bear. I have never been so naive as to think a big cat being as strong as a bear - even back when I was playing with my multitude of colorful plastic animals ( from 5 to about 9 years old ). I always knew the bear was stronger. But I thought that with his speed, agility, and his razor-sharp claws and huge teeth, the lion or tiger might win roughly 6 out of 10. As I entered the old debates ( 2000 ) I debated for the grizzly. Wow! I didn't know just how right I was! The grizzly holds a perfect score. But to this day, I will accept the truth - wherever it takes us. To be perfectly, honest, I still expect some new historical discoveries.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 28, 2018 10:11:08 GMT -5
Seeing all the newspaper and book accounts of bears either killing or defeating tigers in face to face fights, also lions, and now reading history of the fallen king, we could safely say that yes Brobear, you were right.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 31, 2018 15:24:55 GMT -5
Page 155: the coronation of the lion.
now i am reading how the church did everything to make the lion the new king of the beasts, not because of them winning, because as we already read, the bears always beat them, but because the church did not want a bear cult, they did not want the bear viewed as a god. I cant wait to read the last chapter “the revenge of the bears”.
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Post by Bear studies? on Jan 3, 2019 3:18:20 GMT -5
Why would the Church heirarchy want to promulgate/subatitute a "lion cult" though?
The Bible clearly emphasises God's gift of dominion over animals, and thus mans duty to check the rampages of brutish beasts by domestication or extirpation, as needful.
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Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2019 4:02:00 GMT -5
There was no lion cult in Europe. There were no lions in Europe. One of the reasons the Church chose the lion as a replacement was the fact that while the people recognized the image, they had no actual lions. The lion, in Europe was nothing more that pictures on banners, shields, etc. Simply a word and an image.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 3, 2019 5:39:19 GMT -5
Judging by all the guests we have (lion fans), the church did a great job against the bear, even erradicating the bear fanbase.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 4, 2019 22:41:28 GMT -5
Page 175: in the circus arena, bears were practically invincible, especially the giant bears.
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Post by Kamchatka on Jan 5, 2019 0:02:37 GMT -5
There was no lion cult in Europe. There were no lions in Europe. One of the reasons the Church chose the lion as a replacement was the fact that while the people recognized the image, they had no actual lions. The lion, in Europe was nothing more that pictures on banners, shields, etc. Simply a word and an image. Lions were not naturally extant in Europe from Roman times. Lions were imported for circus and menagerie purposes. Kings would habitually keep them as symbolic. The King of Sweden famously had a Barbary lion kill a local brown bear by test of combat.
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Post by brobear on Jan 5, 2019 1:23:28 GMT -5
There was no lion cult in Europe. There were no lions in Europe. One of the reasons the Church chose the lion as a replacement was the fact that while the people recognized the image, they had no actual lions. The lion, in Europe was nothing more that pictures on banners, shields, etc. Simply a word and an image. Lions were not naturally extant in Europe from Roman times. Lions were imported for circus and menagerie purposes. Kings would habitually keep them as symbolic. The King of Sweden famously had a Barbary lion kill a local brown bear by test of combat. There remains no record of a Barbary lion ever killing a brown bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 5, 2019 8:20:21 GMT -5
Page 176: as time passed, he had fewer and fewer occasions to demonstrate his strength and superiority over all other animals, in the ancient arena, he triumphed over other wild animals, INCLUDING THE LION, AT LEAST IN SINGLE COMBAT.
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Post by Sven. on Jan 5, 2019 18:25:26 GMT -5
Lions were not naturally extant in Europe from Roman times. Lions were imported for circus and menagerie purposes. Kings would habitually keep them as symbolic. The King of Sweden famously had a Barbary lion kill a local brown bear by test of combat. There remains no record of a Barbary lion ever killing a brown bear. There is. Google books does hold an electronic copy of an issue of: 'The London and Paris Observer: Or Chronicle of News, Science, Literature and the Fine Arts.' Check volume 6, dated 28 March 1830 - which carries a book review of: 'Field Sports of the North or Europe...' this book notes the prevalence of big brown bears in Scandinavia. At the top of the righthand column of page 195 of the issue, the story of the King of Sweden pitting a lion he had received from the Barbary powers against a local bear is duly listed. It reports that the lion did indeed kill the bear. Interestlingly, the King later had this lion preserved by a crude early attempt at taxidermy, and it still exists as a curious exhibit in the Royal collection. Hope this helps. Sven.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 5, 2019 19:33:35 GMT -5
Ok Sven, i tried to search that but its very hard, post that account or book here if you have it. now even if it did happen, that would be the only victory of a Barbary lion over a bear, its not impossible for that to happen. In the Roman arena the bears beat the lions every single time in one on one combat. Scroll up.
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Post by brobear on Jan 5, 2019 20:35:47 GMT -5
What we need is book title and author. In all honesty Sven, I hope you are being straight with us.
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