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Post by tom on Apr 16, 2018 11:35:17 GMT -5
Almost any bear is going to have a tough time with the likes of a Guar. A very risky prey item to say the very least. In pit fights from the past, sometimes these animals would manage to gore the bear killing it. A massive animal like a Guar or bison is going to make the bear work for the victory. I feel the same way even if we used a large Kodiak bear. Even a 1500 pound 10' tall boar Kodiak?
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Post by Polar on Apr 19, 2018 10:11:30 GMT -5
Almost any bear is going to have a tough time with the likes of a Guar. A very risky prey item to say the very least. In pit fights from the past, sometimes these animals would manage to gore the bear killing it. A massive animal like a Guar or bison is going to make the bear work for the victory. I feel the same way even if we used a large Kodiak bear. Even a 1500 pound 10' tall boar Kodiak? Even a 1500-pound bear will have a harder time than a bigger big cat. Bears are just not as well-adapted to solely hunt prey as big cats are.
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Post by tom on Apr 19, 2018 10:40:45 GMT -5
That is true. Bears (even large bears) will usually go for a much easier meal.
However, if I may play the devils advocate here. Hypothetically, if a large Kodiak in the 1500 lb and 10' catagory were to be engaged in a death match with an adult Moose, Bison or Gaur. IMO he would have the upper body strength necessary to bring the animal to the ground IF (and a big if) he could control the head and twist the animal to the ground with those mega powerful shoulders, neck and arms. Once off it's feet it's all over for the Bovine. It would still be a monumental task, but possible IMO.
Remember this is purely hypothetical as a Wild bear would not normally attempt such a feat unless the animal was injured or sick.
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Post by Polar on Apr 19, 2018 10:46:59 GMT -5
Then I agree with you there, it'll simply be harder for a 1500-pound bear to do so than say a 500 to 600-pound cat with its greater flexibility, even. Bears need more brute strength (and thus sapped energy) to hunt the bovines and that can possess a large risk as bovines are strong themselves. Fighting fire with fire isn't as effective as with water.
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Post by tom on Apr 19, 2018 10:56:57 GMT -5
I use the "Twist" analogy in reference to a Rodeo cowboy in a Steer wrestling event. He brings a steer to the ground by grabbing the horns and twisting the neck till the animal flops over onto his side. A crude but visually adept example. Cats don't necessarily need to overpower their prey. A single lion kills large prey by making a bite to the throat or over the nose and mouth holding on till the animal suffocates which can take a while but eventually will succumb do to lack of oxygen.
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Post by brobear on Apr 19, 2018 12:33:37 GMT -5
Another little trick used by bears "in the know" is grabbing the bull by his tongue. This was reported in some of the old bull-and-bear fights in California and has been witnessed with barren ground grizzlies and musk ox. The bear grabs the bull's tongue; making the bull completely helpless. Pulls him down by use of the pain, then the fight is on with the bear sometimes tearing the bull's mouth-parts to shreads. Yes, a grizzly has no qualms about being a dirty fighter.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 20:50:30 GMT -5
There exists a lot of accounts of bulls being pitted against both lions and tigers, with the bulls usually trampling the big cat or goring it. Same for bears, but bears have a significantly better track record against them in those pit fights. Many of the claims that the bears broke the neck of the bulls came from those fights.
In any case, the bear is better equipped to fight large bovines head on than a big cat is. However through ambush and stealth, that's where the big cat prevails.
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Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2018 6:28:04 GMT -5
Nicely said Malikc. I agree 100%.
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Post by brobear on Sept 7, 2018 4:11:07 GMT -5
I have been doing considerable thinking on this topic. Over at W.F. you can see a line-up size-comparison of the biggest bovines. I don't think that any of the big bovines are too much for a really big grizzly. Its difficult to place any exact number here, but I would venture that any grizzly boar weighing 800+ pounds could take down a bull bison or any other bull bovine including the gaur or any of the buffalo species at least as often as 50% of confrontations. When you read about bull vs bear events, you learn that most often, the bear breaks the bull's neck. There are only a few wild bovine bigger that a bull bison and the weight difference is minimal. I see no neck-size advantage over the bison in any other bovine species.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 8, 2018 12:24:03 GMT -5
Well yeah sure, of course polars barely go for the smaller walruses. The walrus in that video is much bigger than the bear correct? More than 2000 lbs? Also, in Yellowstone national park, there was an adult male grizzly called “Preacher” Its one of the few bears that its known for taking down adult bisons. I lost the link.
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Post by brobear on Sept 10, 2018 3:23:25 GMT -5
Well yeah sure, of course polars barely go for the smaller walruses. The walrus in that video is much bigger than the bear correct? More than 2000 lbs? Also, in Yellowstone national park, there was an adult male grizzly called “Preacher” Its one of the few bears that its known for taking down adult bisons. I lost the link. Preacher was a huge Yellowstone grizzly boar nic-named "The Bison Killer" by the park rangers merely due to his size. He was big enough to challenge a bull bison but was never observed doing so. Every Spring, grizzlies of Yellowstone find dead bison who did not survive the Winter. It is assumed that every bison carcass being witnessed consumed by a grizzly is a found carcass. It is possible that a small percentage of these might be from grizzly predation. Few naturalists trek the wilds of Wyoming or Montana at night to observe grizzlies; when they are most active.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 10, 2018 5:16:03 GMT -5
Some of those bisons were definately killed by grizzlies, thats for sure. Here is Preacher, this bear is built like a tank, look at those front limbs, this grizzly here will take an adult bison down, i can see that.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 12, 2018 22:52:24 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Sept 16, 2018 8:30:50 GMT -5
A bison herd is made up of cows and calves; except for a couple of months during the Summer. Going back in time, into the 1800's before the great buffalo slaughter, before the great grizzly slaughter, there were some big bears out West; Especially in the Sierra Nevada region. Boar grizzlies weighing from 800 to 1000+ pounds were not uncommon. These bears fed on found carcasses and routinely displaced wolves from their kills. they also preyed upon bison calves as well as sick, injured, or old adult cows. Probably the occasional healthy mature cow was killed. During those Summer months, there was that grizzly who would find himself faced with an angry bull bison protecting the herd. There might even have been that King Grizzly who was confident enough in his abilities to challenge a lone bull in Spring, Summer, or Autumn. In any case, the pioneers and Indians too told tales of bison/grizzly conflict. Sometimes the bear killed the bison. Sometimes the bison killed the bear.
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Post by brobear on Nov 20, 2018 15:39:30 GMT -5
Warsaw posted some time ago:
The bear killed two bison in the Bieszczady Mountains BIESZCZADY, LESKA DISTRICT. On Saturday 18 November, not far from the village of Olchowa, in the middle Wielkie forestry area, two dead bison were found in the Lesko Forest District. Both were not far from each other. The first of them, the 8-year-old bull, left only the front part, including the head. However, the body of the second individual, also a bull but 11 years old, has been preserved in a better condition. He had a broken spine and bear's claws.
- We informed the Poviat Veterinary Officer in Sanok, the branch of the Polish Academy of Sciences in Ustrzyki Dolne and the Association of European Bison Friends - says Wojciech Jankowski from the Lesko Forest District. - On the evening of November 19, the site and the remains of the bison were inspected.
Tissue samples for genetic tests and the presence of tuberculosis bacilli were collected - bison in Bieszczady are suffering from diseases. On the basis of the inspection of the place of the event and the remains of animals, veterinarians excluded human interference, while the bear's attack was taken as the most probable cause of the fall of the bison, as indicated by the injuries and numerous tracks of this predator, as well as its lair.
- A few years ago in this area we had a case of killing a bison by a bear, which for the following weeks was nourishing its prey just at the beginning of winter - reminds Wojciech Jankowski. - It looks like the predator and this time took the opportunity to catch more art from bison herds moving towards their winter refuge. A deep gorge, where the driven bison breaks legs or falls over, gives the predator a predominance.
Forest District Lesko will apply to the Regional Directorate of Environmental Protection in Rzeszów for permission to prepare skulls of dead bison for educational purposes.
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Post by brobear on Dec 6, 2018 4:46:28 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/ Among the scattered historical accounts on grizzly predation, the best evidence comes from the journals of Lewis and Clark. In one provocative entry, Lewis wrote: "These bears resort the river where they lie in wate at the crossing places of the game for Elk and weak cattle (buffalo); when they procure a subject of either they lie by the carcass and keep the wolves off until they devour it." The journals also reveal much by what they leave unsaid. Buffalo, wolves, and grizzlies ("white bears") are frequently listed as inhabitants of the same regions, but wolves alone are depicted as constant predators: "We have seen great numbers of buffalo, and the usual attendants of these last, the wolves, who follow their movements and feed upon those who die by accident or who are too poor to keep pace with the herd; we also wounded a white bear . . ." Many of the predatory efforts undertaken by the bears were against the expeditionaries themselves, some of whom had narrow escapes from the beasts. "The White bear have become so troublesome to us," wrote Lewis, "that I do not think it prudent to send one man alone on an errand of any kind ... I have made the men sleep with their arms by them . . ." There are only two or three eyewitness accounts of grizzly predation against buffalo. Of these, the most detailed comes from a Canadian journal: One bear [grizzly] killed at Hand Hills [Alberta] in 1877 required eight shots before he was disabled. His feet were eight inches across, and were armed with claws five inches long. He was caught in the act of killing a buffalo cow, and had just cracked her spine when he received the first shot. When stretched, his hide was as large as a buffalo bull . . . Apparently grizzlies were capable of killing buffalo, but did so rarely. Whether buffalo fall to grizzlies or to wolves, their end by such predation is usually expeditious and violent; the predators operate with tooth and claw and gorge themselves on the spot. Quote: He was caught in the act of killing a buffalo cow, and had just cracked her spine when he received the first shot.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 11, 2018 18:59:54 GMT -5
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 11, 2018 19:02:04 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Dec 12, 2018 2:59:05 GMT -5
Great find Kodiak. I have believed from the beginning that on occasion an inland grizzly, especially a big 700 to 900 pound boar, will kill a bison. Historically, the true bison hunters were those living on the prairie and Sierra Nevada. But even they fed more heavily on found bison carcasses or bison calves. Also consider that grizzlies are rarely observed at night when they are most active.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 12, 2018 5:23:20 GMT -5
After all we have read, a large grizzly of over 700 lbs, say like “Preacher” who is known as “the bison killer”, can definatly kill an adult bison. It rarely has happen before, but it has happened. Also, in my last post, it was said that adult female grizzly would have killed that young adult bull bison if it wasnt for human interference. The bison was injured, the bear won that fight.
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