The only true Bear hunter-Dale tiger

[brobear]

*The story that the large male Amur tiger known as M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha and perhaps a few other names killing a 440-pound she bear is still being told. Why? 

The bears killed by Dale were never weighed. The second of the two adult female brown bears killed by Dale was described as "a large bear" which really has no meaning. Her weight was estimated to be from 330 to 440 pounds. Again, we could average that weight out to 385 pounds. 

Fact: The fake claim that Dale killed a bear nearly his own weight is unconfirmed.  
 
Fact: As of now ( 2022 ), we have no numbers. We only know that no tiger has ever been known to kill a bear of any species as heavy as himself. 

[brobear]

M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha and likely a few other names. The Amur tiger idolized by the tiger fans. 
 
Siberian Tiger Misha - The Adult brown bear killer. 
 
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalsversesanimals/siberian-tiger-misha-the-adult-brown-bear-killer-t1707.html?sid=ee96a94f879095b938d612afc1176316 
 

Tiger Lover - Misha doesn't seem to have much trouble in killing equal size Adult brown bears. 
____________________________________________________________________________ 
 
Apollyon - Interesting. Several observations can be made here:

"Misha" weighed 445 lbs in 1995 although it was observed that his weight had dropped to 375 lbs later on. This is roughly in line with the latest weight estimates (the former, healthy weight) of Siberians (202 kg vs. 195 kg from Miquelle's limited sample).

Secondly, it mentions Misha killed adult females 'nearly as large as he is' - 200 kg is definitely the max size of female Brown Bears with 130 kg being the average. The weights of the female Bears are unknown.

I do note Misha is later noticed to be thin (but expected to recover) and has 3 broken canines (something I've always stated about Tigers: canine breakage is higher in Tigers than Lions...might have something to do with the length of the canines).

Point is, if Misha is taking adult female Brown Bears this does not mean he can take adult male Bears (esp. in a 'face to face' fight).

However, good indication the Tiger can prey on Bears, even large females. The issue is whether or not male Brown Bears are part of the diet.

[brobear]

Frank321 - No "Misha doesn't seem to have much trouble in killing equal size adult [sow] brown bears." Neither do brown bears for that matter. There is a record of a sow brown bear ambushing and bringing down a boar, showing similarity to the method P. tigris uses in hunting bears. Furthermore, a sow brown bear, even at similar size to a boar is not as formidable; adult specimens--and especially old boars--have much greater muscle mass relative to size than subadult boars and sows in addition to the leverage of the boar's skeletal system being more geared to strength (that is, a point of muscle attachment further from the boar's respective joint than in the sow's).

"Ambushing a 'similar-sized' bear" [even a sow] is a far different thing than actually facing off against one--no tiger goes around "fighting bears." The tiger's ability to hit with incredible momentum and bite the back of the neck of the bear with its massive canines allows for, in most cases, a relatively short and undangerous hunt.

[OldGreenGrolar]

Could you show me the account of female brown bears ambushing similar size wild boars?

[brobear]

Bold Champ - .....tiger lover, it was stated misha preyed upon female brown bears....not male, though generally i do believe the tiger would be the usual winner, for several reasons. one of them being that they, along with lions, can execute, judging by studies, the most energetic, immediate attack of any animal of comparable size.

simply put, the tiger would overwhelm the less agile bear, striking countless blows, in very quick succession, while himself avoiding the more lethal blows of the bear. and indeed, all big cats are designed to kill prey rather quickly, so the tiger would likely be the usual winner in this case.

[brobear]

Big Bonns - Bold, trouble is the raining down of multi super fast blows is utterly meaningless against a good sized Bear, indeed such tactic has proved virtually useless against even a modest asiatic Black and even against each other. (when Cat fights cat.)
Cats kill by neck bites, and occasional skull/back bites. They do not kill with paws except small deer species, which even skilled humans might kill with their own hits.
A Bigcat is never going to kill a 500lb Bear this way, regardless of how many hits per sec it manages....muchless 1000lb + of Bear. Indeed big Bear are able to soak up massive crunching hits of other 1000lb suiters at falls etc.
Tiger are flank and rear strike suprize critters, even against Deer. There are numerous Samba that have thwarted the frontal assault of a scrapping Tiger, where a much heavier bear, with huge paws/claws and its own set of jaws will be infinately more dangerous.
Tigers have been killed by Bear....this is proven beyond doubt and i suggest this happens when the Tigers suprize strike fails or the fight is front on

[brobear]

Frank321 - There were never any tigers over 1000 lbs in Siberia; the largest reported Siberian tiger weighed 384 kilograms, albeit was an unconfirmed specimen. According to Mazak, reports of the largest Siberian tigers at over 700 lbs have thus far been given from unreliable sources (and thus unconfirmed). Similarily, the largest Siberian brown bears today can weigh in at 400 kilograms and not 680, although these are unusual specimens (again, with the range being 140-320 kilograms).

The Bold Champ,
Provide some adequate reasons as to why you believe the tiger would win; tigers don't kill their prey through use of rapid blows. There are some reported instances, however, in general the feline uses its long canines to close the trachea of its prey. However, those prey species don't have the flexible, powerful forelimbs of brown bears and thus can't push off to escape the tiger's grip. Furthermore, bears have a loose dermal shield on their neck as well as a thick fat-layer that would protect to a degree from such a bite.

[brobear]

roflcopters - i have a question, so was Dale a different tiger that killed 8 different bears or Dale= misha?

Frank321 - If Dale did kill eight bears, and Misha was Dale, than in two and a half years of tracking "Misha," only nine or eight kills were found (although almost certainly nine, otherwise the excerpt would have stated that all of the kills found were bears rather than merely "over 80%").

Tiger Lover - I think Misha is different tiger and Dale is different tiger. Some tigers become habitual bear killers. Some bengal tigers became habitual sloth and black bear killers.

Frank, Biologists don't track a tiger for 365 days. Their tracking of Misha's kills is merely small percentrage of Misha's total kills per year. Yet, 80% of Misha's kills are full of brown and black bears. A tiger atlast needs 50-60 large prey per year. Considering 80% of Misha's kill were bears, we can calculate around 40-48 bears (both brown and black) were killed by Misha in a year. And, Nearly 100 bears were killed by Misha in 2 years. It seems some tigers suppress bear population in their domain by playing Apex Predator role. No wonder Tiger is called as "Master of Taiga" by native siberians.

[brobear]

Frank321 - Tiger Lover,
A sample size of nine kills is far too low predict the annual distribution of prey species targeted. Also, a tiger needs about 2000 kilograms of meat in a year--simply hunting more for small prey is sufficient to replace your figure of "50-60 large prey per year." One tiger that preys on bears in a given population is not nerely enough to suppress their population. Although, it might aid in removing sick or injured specimens that might potentially distribute dysgenics into the Amur brown bear gene pool.

[brobear]

Tiger Lover - Apollyon wrote:
However, good indication the Tiger can prey on Bears, even large females. The issue is whether or not male Brown Bears are part of the diet.

The good indication is, Tigers can prey on Similar Size bears WITHOUT MUCH DIFFICULTY. That gives a clue that slightly larger or larger brown bears are not safe from a determined tiger's predation. And, i don't think large adult male brown bears are immune to the predation of the large 300 kg tigers like T16.

[brobear]

Apollyon - Although the Bears are described as 'nearly as large as he is' we don't know what that means exactly since 200 kg is the upper limit for female Bears in the region (130 kg being the average). Secondly, they are almost certainly killed in ambush with an attack from behind. So, yes, a male of comparable size could be taken in ambush.

Face to face, the Tiger risks serious injuries against a Bear of similar size. (We know Dale was injured when an ambush attack failed, although the Bear was injured in the initial assault - the Bear nevertheless was able to fight back and injure Dale before succumbing to his injuries. The Bear was not as large as Dale).

T16 has been weighed? This would be the largest official record (scientifically verified) weight for a Tiger. Not likely.

[brobear]

Tygra - Apollyon, don't tigers ambush prey just to get a head start in catching them?

I've yet to see a tiger ambush prey like a leopard would. By leopard I mean pouncing on them at the last minute.

You could say lions ambush wilderbeest. If a wilderbesst wanted and was brave enough he/she could turn around and fight. The wilderbeest is very aware that the lion is chasing them.

[brobear]

Apollyon - I'm not sure what you mean. Tigers attack by the rear and, rarely, the side. A well-known trick in the Sunderbans, to avoid being attacked by Tigers, is for people to wear a mask on the back of their heads to look like a face. The Tigers rarely attack if they think they can be seen.

Lions attempt ambush but, given the environment they often don't get the chance and have to try using numbers to take on dangerous prey that can't be surprised.

A good defense for a decent-sized prey animal (like a Wildebeest) is to stand its ground as Cats can become unnerved in a face to face confrontation.

Regarding how Tigers take Bears, it has been described as an ambush from behind where the Tiger uses his superior weight (the Bear is invariably lighter) to bear down (pun unintended) on the Bear while driving his canines into the vertebrae of the Bear. In rare cases, the attack fails to kill the Bear (although it is seriously injured) and the Bear fights back. Tigers can be injured in these cases.

To take the ambush attack thus described and suggest the Tiger could therefore take bigger prey animals (i.e. males) is not necessarily accurate since a Bear, esp. a male Bear, over about 200 kg develops a more muscular neck which can prevent a fatal neck attack. 200 kg does appear to be the limit for Bears as prey.

Note: this does not mean a particularly large Tiger could not kill a Bear over 200 kg but it would be a risky endeavour and likely only taken in desperation (or in defense of a kill where the Tiger is confident enough to hold his ground against a decent sized Bear). 
 
*Note: 200kg = 441-pounds. 

[brobear]

www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalsversesanimals/siberian-tiger-misha-the-adult-brown-bear-killer-t1707.html?sid=ee96a94f879095b938d612afc1176316%C2%A0

Tygra - I mean don't they normally use ambush just to get a head start in catching prey that is slightly faster than them? While I know and I agree people in India do where have worn masks to prevent a tiger attack, the cases I've seen tigers hunt it's just what a lioness does... Take the prey by suprise to get a head start in catching them. I've never seen a tiger go leopard style, and pounce on the prey before the prey knows what's happening. I mean I have no idea what goes through a tiger's mind when hunting bear (the tactics etc) but the benefits must outweigh the dangers otherwise the tiger "Misha" would not have hunted bears (giving that it was females) that were around the same size. You say a tiger uses it's superior weight, but it was described as bears being the same size.

And I've never seen a wilderbeest ever stand up to a lioness, yeah, a leopard but not lions.

[brobear]

BigBonns - Trouble is, this really tells us nothing.
Bears almost as big as Dale, suggests young Bears or females, while there is no real evidence to suggests major fights occurred.
What we have is predation events on small to moderate Bear and even here, Dale getting injured when the small bear tried to rally.

[brobear]

Apollyon - That would certainly be one of the reasons - esp. with prey that use speed as their means of 'defence' However, Tigers ambush larger prey that can fight back - the point of attack is not to catch the animal in this case but to launch an attack unseen in order to inflict damage without risk. This appears to be the primary method of hunting Gaurs - Lions probably would do the same if they could but, being out in the open, rarely get the chance to do an 'unseen ambush'.

This has been the description of the various experts on the topic. Secondly, the 'killing bite' is invariably on the back of the neck - which certainly conforms to an ambush attack. Third, most of the time the Tiger is unharmed - not likely in a face to face confrontation with a powerful animal (and predator). Third, there are cases when a Tiger has been injured (Dale) when the ambush failed and the Bear 'fought back' - this is the actual description. Thus the evidence strongly suggests ambush.

200 kg is the largest weight of any Bear killed by a Tiger - and this is from Dale. The other Bears could not have been 200 kg as well - but may well have been 'near' 200 kg.

Not simply according to me but according to the evidence. No Bear over 200 kg has been proven to have been killed by a Tiger. This doesnot mean it cannot occur (or has not occurred) but the lack of evidence leads me to use the word 'appears'. Contrary to your assertion about scientific literature supporting Bears killed over 200 kg, this is not so. You claim, without merit, that Goodrich and Hornocker revised their statement about Dale kiling Bears "twice his size" (it's all over the internet and routinely cited - falsely - by Tiger fans) due to 'pressure' from the Russian government? The Russians take pride in their Siberians. I hardly think they are going to come out and insist a couple of Tiger experts 'lie' about the Bear-killing abilities of the Tiger. (Tiger fans routinely dismiss any Asian bias, and Korean bias specifically, even though the Tiger is revered in Asian literature, mythology and is now considered as a 'representative' of the East over the Western 'Lion' yet you insist the Russian government will suppress the Tiger in favour of the Bear (even though the Tiger does not represent the West). What for? Are they threatened by the Chinese?

Point is, while one can argue it is possible, there is, currently, no evidence of Bears over 200 kg being taken by Tigers. Also, the 170 kg Bear taken by a Tigress may suggest the Bear was larger (not necessarily but likely) but this does not mean that Tigers can kill larger Bears over a certain size. Male Bears do have neck protection. This does not have to be a 400 kg animal. Nor 300 kg. It is quite probable that it begins at the 200 kg level (and hence the reason Dale was forced to fight when his ambush failed to fully pierce to the vertebrae).

[brobear]

Tygra - Apollyon, just because Dale failed one attempt doesn't mean he can't kill largers bears over 200kg. Not all ambushes are successfull, and this will go with any predatory animal, every hunt is going to have different circumstances that will occur, not all hunts are going to be the same.

And it's good that Dale did fail one ambush, because it showed he stayed, carried on, and was successfull in the end with the bear fully aware of him.

And there's not much difference bewteen a lion and a tiger, I'n my opinion (I don't expect you to agree), but I think the tiger is slightly larger and slightly more powerful. So if a lion can attack and kill larger prey without the advantage of not being seen like when you said "Lions probably would do the same if they could but, being out in the open, rarely get the chance to do an 'unseen ambush', I don't see why a tiger could'nt do it.

[brobear]

Tiger Lover - Apollyon wrote:
This has been the description of the various experts on the topic. Secondly, the 'killing bite' is invariably on the back of the neck - which certainly conforms to an ambush attack. Third, most of the time the Tiger is unharmed - not likely in a face to face confrontation with a powerful animal (and predator). Third, there are cases when a Tiger has been injured (Dale) when the ambush failed and the Bear 'fought back' - this is the actual description. Thus the evidence strongly suggests ambush.

That is not evidence smartass.....That is your biased speculation....

And, bear lovers and tiger haters boast how bears are durable, has many inch thick layers, fight longer blah blah blah....Suddenly all supposed advantages for bear disapperaed for them when tiger kill bear by ambush. Ambush often leads to fight. Should not same advantages exist for bear even in ambush too ? Should not many inch thick layer protech bear in ambush ?

And, Tigers also kill bears in Summer months, when bears are in full strength,

"...and larger animals such as black and even brown bears being occasionally taken during the summer months. One radio-collared tiger studied by WCS ate more bears than anything else, at least during the summer months."

[brobear]

221extra - " Five bears from nine (4 brown and 1 Himalaya) have been extracted by one tiger, adult resident самцом Димой (M20.) " " In four cases at an attack of tigers on brown bears (in all cases it there were adults самки a bear) it was possible to establish a degree of an antagonism of predators. Twice attributes of struggle were insignificant and tigers quickly destroyed she-bears. In two other cases struggle was more long and came to an end with death of bears.

This suggests two of the cases were females and the other two were likely males due to the longer struggle.

Some tigers, apparently, prefer to eat bears (for example, M20), however it presume only adult самцы, capable to enter in an antagonism with bears. From the literature it is known only two cases when brown bears have extracted самки tigers (Kaplans, 1948; Бромлей, 1965). and In spite of the fact that in its diet forages of a phytogenesis prevail, the brown bear is the largest ground predator in the Far East. This animal is capable to extract

I guess dale did get injured suggesting furthermore that the bear he killed was a male due to how quick he took at the 'she' bears.

[brobear]

Alexious3 - Yes, obviously "Misha=Dale" - the same tiger M20. He has killed 4 brown bear adult females, 1 cub and 1 adult male Black Asiatic bear.

No male adult brown bear was not found killed by tigers (according to WCS). The two brown bears killed with a struggle were females; the first one by M20, the second one (actually, the biggest prey estimated between 150 and 200 kg) by another tiger in August 2001. The second bear has seriously injured its enemy. All this is written in the book cited here by Warsaw.