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Post by brobear on Nov 30, 2022 6:01:59 GMT -5
Quote, "An impressive size bear (the width of the callus of the front paw is 18 centimeters (7.09 inches)." Claws and feet: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bear#Claws_and_feet The paws of the brown bear are quite large. The rear feet of adult bears have been found to typically measure 21 to 36 cm (8.3 to 14.2 in) long, while the forefeet tend to measure about 40% less in length. All four feet in average sized brown bears tend to be about 17.5 to 20 cm (6.9 to 7.9 in) in width. In large coastal or Kodiak bear males, the hindfoot may measure up to 40 cm (16 in) in length, 28.5 cm (11.2 in) in width, while outsized Kodiak bears having had confirmed measurements of up to 46 cm (18 in) along their rear foot. Brown bears are the only extant bears with a hump at the top of their shoulder, which is made entirely of muscle, this feature having developed presumably for imparting more force in digging, which is habitual during foraging for most bears of the species and also used heavily in den construction prior to hibernation. The brown bear's strength has been roughly estimated as 2.5 to 5 times that of a human. *Note: All four feet in average sized brown bears tend to be about 17.5 to 20 cm (6.9 to 7.9 in) in width. Therefore, this shatun bear was an average-sized brown bear and thus, not a really huge bear by Ussuri brown bear standards.
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Post by brobear on Nov 30, 2022 8:56:45 GMT -5
Quote- Judging by the traces, the fight here unfolded serious. The animals fought for a long time, but the tiger still won. *Remember, an engineer is not an expert at reading tracks on the ground. Before these few people found these scant remains, there had likely been all kinds of scavengers all over that bear carcass which the tiger most likely found.
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Post by brobear on Dec 1, 2022 4:37:51 GMT -5
Grizzly vs Amur Tiger: Zhao Yan is a ranger in the Hunchun Bureau of China's Northeast Tiger and Leopard National Park and has been working in conservation for twelve years. He says that the palm pads of male Amur tigers are typically from 10.5 to 13 cm wide. The newspaper story reads; "An impressive size bear (the width of the callus of the front paw is 18 centimeters (7.09 inches). This bear was not a huge bear when he died. Top picture shows what the paw of a large brown bear looks like.
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Post by brobear on Dec 1, 2022 6:24:18 GMT -5
Another news version: www.zapovedamur.ru/news/kse During a raid in the southern region of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve (Khabarovsk Territory), on the territory of the buffer zone, inspectors discovered a fight between two taiga giants - the Amur tiger and the brown bear. Not having time to go into hibernation, of impressive size (the width of the callus of the front paw is 18 cm), the clubfoot became the prey of the striped owner of the taiga. “Judging by the traces, the fight here turned out to be serious. The animals fought for a long time, but the tiger still won. It was probably Odyr, a male that most often lives in this area of the reserve and visits the tigress Zlata, whose favorite habitat is the northern part of our reserve. However, the tiger itself was not hurt. Such a conclusion can be drawn due to the lack of bloody stains at the place of his lying down - that is, rest, which we found next to the half-eaten bear carcass. Probably, the tiger will return here later to continue eating for a few more days,” said Yury Kya, Chief Engineer for Forest Protection and Forestry Activities of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve. Meanwhile, in the southern part of the reserve, the snow cover is now much higher than in the northern part: 30 cm versus 10 cm. And, most likely, the bears will still hibernate from day to day. According to security guards of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve, this summer Amur tigers attacked bears more than once, including Himalayan ones. Conducting raid activities, inspectors repeatedly found the remains of Himalayan bears and tiger excrement, in which bear claws were found. According to Yuri Kya, most often, these were one-year-old individuals, that is, “underyearlings”. The tiger confidently defeats the Himalayan bear until the age of three.
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Post by brobear on Dec 1, 2022 6:54:20 GMT -5
*Note: Wild animal forums other than the 'Domain of the Bears' and our sister group, 'Bear and Gorilla realm' refuse to question this unconfirmed incident. If it fits into their pro-big cat agenda, they simply accept anything as fact. My questions: 1- During a raid for what purpose? Who raids a wildlife preserve?
2- Inspectors? What are these people trained to inspect?
3- Quote; "discovered a fight between two taiga giants - the Amur tiger and the brown bear." -No; they did not witness a fight.
4- Quote: "Not having time to go into hibernation, of impressive size (the width of the callus of the front paw is 18 cm), the clubfoot became the prey of the striped owner of the taiga." -Therefore likely a shatun bear already half-dead from starvation and freezing. Possible already dead. Also, see reply #110 directly above. Not a huge brown bear. 5- Quote: "Judging by the traces, the fight here turned out to be serious. The animals fought for a long time, but the tiger still won." -Who within this small group is trained to read traces on the ground and in the snow? Very likely a lot of tracks from a great many scavengers ever since the bear died from whatever means. Possible the tiger ambushed and killed a half-dead shatun bear or maybe the tiger was simply one of the numerous scavengers. 6- Quote: "It was probably Odyr, a male that most often lives in this area of the reserve and visits the tigress Zlata, whose favorite habitat is the northern part of our reserve. However, the tiger itself was not hurt." -This is simply more evidence that the bear was either already near death when the tiger ambushed him or already dead when the tiger found him. Certainly not a fight with a healthy adult male brown bear. 7- Consider also; if there had been a long bloody fight between the tiger and the brown bear, this speaks highly for the half-dead shatun bear after being ambush by the tiger. However, this did not happen. It would be virtually impossible for the tiger to come out of a fight with a brown bear completely unscathed. 8- Quote: "According to security guards of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve, this summer Amur tigers attacked bears more than once, including Himalayan ones. Conducting raid activities, inspectors repeatedly found the remains of Himalayan bears and tiger excrement, in which bear claws were found. According to Yuri Kya, most often, these were one-year-old individuals, that is, “underyearlings”. The tiger confidently defeats the Himalayan bear until the age of three." -This makes it clear that the tiger called Odyr was not known for killing large bears. __________________________________________________________________________________ FACT: We remain with no verified/confirmed report of a tiger ever killing a full-grown male brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Dec 1, 2022 10:28:21 GMT -5
Brown Bear www.inaturalist.org/guide_taxa/889098#:~:text=The%20paws%20of%20the%20brown The paws of the brown bear are quite large. The rear feet of adult bears have been found to typically measure 21 to 36 cm (8.3 to 14.2 in) long, while the forefeet tend to measure about 40% less in length. All four feet in average sized brown bears tend to be about 17.5 to 20 cm (6.9 to 7.9 in) in width. In large coastal or Kodiak bear males, the hindfoot may measure up to 40 cm (16 in) in length, 28.5 cm (11.2 in) in width, while outsized Kodiak bears having had confirmed measurements of up to 46 cm (18 in) along their rear foot. Brown bears are the only extant bears with a hump at the top of their shoulder, which are made entirely of muscle, this feature having developed presumably for imparting more force in digging, which is habitual during foraging for most bears of the species and also used heavily in den construction prior to hibernation. A moderately large size full-grown male Ussuri brown bear would have a paw wider than the average brown bear, but some smaller than a Kodiak. Between 7.9 inches and 11.2 inches wide... roughly 9.5 to 10 inches wide.
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Post by brobear on Dec 2, 2022 5:28:32 GMT -5
Newspaper headlines: Brutal fight to the death: Amur tiger killed and ate a brown bear in a nature reserve near Khabarovsk - from Reply #103.
Conclusions - Known Facts:
1- Just like the Batalov report, this report is not a peer reviewed scientific study. 2- Yuri Kya, chief engineer for forest protection and forestry activities, was unqualified to examine and report what had actually taken place at an old frozen carcass he had discovered. 3- A moderately-large male brown bear had died at this spot and a tiger, among other scavengers had fed on the carcass. 4- There were moon bear remains and some claws from the brown bear carcass found in the tiger's droppings. ____________________________________________________________ Unknown Facts:
1- How old was the bear? 2- The bear was probably a shatun bear, faced with freezing and starvation. 3- Did the tiger ambush and kill the bear? 4- Did the tiger discover a frozen bear carcass? ____________________________________________________________
FACT: We remain with no verified/confirmed report of a tiger ever killing a full-grown male brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Dec 2, 2022 6:00:11 GMT -5
The Grizzly by Enos A. Mills. The largest grizzly track that I have measured was slightly more than thirteen inches long, and seven and one half inches wide at the widest point. These measurements did not include the clawmarks. In places where the bear had slipped on snowy or muddy ground the track with clawmarks was of most formidable appearance. Many of the big Alaskan grizzlies have large feet, sometimes making a track eighteen inches in length. However, in the Rocky Mountains I have seen a large track that had been made by a comparatively small bear. More than once I have seen bears weighing less than four hundred pounds whose feet were larger than those of other bears who weighed upwards of six hundred pounds. A large grizzly bear track does not necessarily indicate that it is the track of a large bear. FACT: the size of a brown bear cannot be determined by the size of his skull nor the size of his footprints.
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Post by brobear on Dec 2, 2022 8:40:48 GMT -5
1- W.J. Jankowski report remains unconfirmed by biologists. 2- Batalov event remains unconfirmed by biologists. 3- Khabarovsk Territory event remains unconfirmed by biologists. The Khabarovsk Territory story came out in Russian Newspapers on 11/29/2022. "Tiger Kills Huge Brown Bear" is great sensationalism to sell newspapers. However; I have read nothing from any real experts on the animals. No biological report. Just the words of newspaper reporters.
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Post by brobear on Dec 3, 2022 2:32:20 GMT -5
Short video shows man (non-professional) measuring tracks on the site of this alleged "tiger killing bear" scene. The tiger tracks are obviously fresh. However, as can be seen by the carcass, the bear tracks in the snow are much older. I once watched a documentary about the Yeti of the Himalayan Mountains. The biologist showed how the tracks of a fox can "grow" as the wind and sun have their affect on those tracks. It was fox tracks which were mistaken for the Himalayan bigfoot tracks. In other words, measuring footprints in snow, after several days, will not produce an accurate reading. The measurements they made of the day's-old bear tracks are inaccurate.
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Post by Montezuma on Dec 3, 2022 7:54:49 GMT -5
You should contact a khabrovsk biologist about this Crap.
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Post by brobear on Dec 4, 2022 0:33:51 GMT -5
By Granoloh concerning this alleged incident: web.archive.org/web/20130825212443/http://www.lasy.gov.pl/zakladki/aktualnosci/mis_bircza That may be an adult male. No other specific details given tho. __________________________________________________ Translation via depl The twenty-year-old Bieszczady bear, which died at the beginning of May in a fight for a female, will be displayed in the Educational Room of the "Birczańskie Forests" Promotion Complex in the Bircza Forest District. Such a decision was made by the Minister of the Environment, who gave permission for the predator to be prepared. Photo: T. Hare © On the night of May 4-5, near Skorodne (Lipie Forest District, Lutowska Forest District), two male bears fought. One of the rivals was killed. The dead animal, lying in the creek, was found by forest workers and reported to Marek Bajda, the forester. The Carpathian Fauna Research Station of the Museum and the Institute of Zoology of the Polish Academy of Sciences in Ustrzyki Dolne was also notified - its employee, Dr. Roman Gula, made an on-site inspection. Their results left no doubt - the bear was killed in a fight for a female by a younger competitor. This is also supported by the fact that currently there is a swarm in these predators. The analysis of traces allowed to establish that the encounter above the clash took place above the creek, near the old hives. Then there was a fight, the weaker one escaped and after about 100 meters of chase, the winner killed his prey by breaking his left hind leg and pulling a 0.5 x 0.5 meter slice of skin on his left side. Extensive haematomas and emaciated muscles were found. This is the first such case on our territory. The killed bear was in poor condition; it was emaciated, with defects in its dentition. However, its dimensions must be respected. It was 210 cm long along its back, weighing 225 kg, and had a neck circumference of 90 cm. Dimensions of the back paw: length 27 cm and width 16.5 cm. Front paw: length 17 cm, width 16.5 cm. Currently there are 26 bears living in the Lutowiska Forest Inspectorate, and over 100 in the Krosno RDSF forests.”
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Post by brobear on Dec 4, 2022 12:08:22 GMT -5
There is absolutely no strong evidence here that the tiger killed this frozen bear carcass.
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Post by Montezuma on Dec 4, 2022 16:27:03 GMT -5
Its just another story as the older onces. Experts arn't always right. Its just a guess and there can be other guesses too, like, a tiger scavenged a dead bear. However, its just an unconfirmed news and it just now simply depends on the reader's mind to accept it as a reality or not. Surely, fantantics and boys would believe it as confirmed! 100% true and a great discovery! we know things like that, which cat fans often say. While, mature men (like us) wouldn't believe it until it isn't well proven.
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Post by brobear on Dec 5, 2022 0:27:31 GMT -5
A very sensible post by vip.everyday: If the size of the forepaw footprint is indeed 18 cm, it is an adult male. Of course, there are no details. First, the place was not examined by experts. It was examined very superficially by ordinary employees of the reserve and left everything as it is. Second, even if experts inspect this site afterwards, it may be too late to draw conclusions. The fact that the tiger was not injured (?) because there was no blood speaks in favor of some very special circumstances (which we most likely will never know).
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Post by brobear on Dec 5, 2022 0:32:33 GMT -5
Quote: "The fact that the tiger was not injured (?) because there was no blood speaks in favor of some very special circumstances (which we most likely will never know)." *Note: The fact that the tiger walked away without a scratch is extremely strong evidence that there was no struggle. Most likely scenario is; the tiger discovered the dead body of a brown bear. There were many tracks on location as the tiger chased away other scavengers. A: Maybe the bear was killed by a bigger bear. B: Maybe the bear was killed by a hunter's bullet. C: Most likely; the bear was a shatun who died from starvation and freezing.
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Post by brobear on Dec 5, 2022 3:02:52 GMT -5
This story was first posted on WF where (of course) it was not challenged. Then, a week ago (11/29/22) it was posted on the "Carnival" where it was soon questioned (good for them). The fanboy who first presented this tale on WF has wisely avoided the Carnival. Smart decision. *Note: edit and add: WAN (world animal news). I wonder how they missed this "Big Story" LOL worldanimalnews.com/
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Dec 5, 2022 8:23:50 GMT -5
I'm not even gonna look at the posts of "he who shall not be named", I'm just gonna guess he said:
"Is prime male kodiak bear is swam all the way to Russia just to fight amur tigarr killer is obese old female tigress on a wheelchair"
Was that accurate?
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Post by theundertaker45 on Dec 5, 2022 9:15:02 GMT -5
I find all of this very funny to be honest. Interactions between Bengal tigers and sloth bears are much better documented than interactions between brown bears and Siberian tigers. When you look into literature you'll see that the respect between the two species is enormous as a sloth bear can prevail extremely well against the Bengal tiger and even win some interactions. Recently I talked to an experienced Indian wildlife photographer on Instagram and he told me what everyone out there tells you: tigers are very careful when trying to prey on sloth bears and if the ambush doesn't go well, they'll run. He told me that male tigers are only successful if the ambush goes well, otherwise they retreat because a sloth bear will fight until the very end and could cause life-threatening injuries. If anyone wants to see my conversation with him, write me a direct message as I am not allowed to share it publicly.
On the other hand you have the Siberian tiger who is so rarely encountered that researchers have never seen a single tiger in their entire life. 95% of the time the researchers stumble across carcasses or scats and draw conclusions. So my question would be (regardless of what the smelly tiger fanboys of Wildfact have to say about this as my first point on sloth bears is 100% true and an established fact): Why should a Siberian tiger bring down a large male brown bear with ease when the other slightly bigger and beefier version of it has a hard time successfully fighting a sloth bear? I mean, it's quite obvious that this bear wasn't killed by the tiger; it very likely died by natural causes and various predators scavenged on it. Which would lead me to my next point that you'll see this report in various newspapers and websites but not in a scientifically approved document; one of those documents that runs through months of verification procedures and gets accepted roughly half a year after being handed in for verification because a team of professionals checks every single source given in the appendix and if the paragraphs coincide with the source. You'll never see this kind of verification coming from Russia when brown bears and tigers are involved and as a matter of fact I don't think I'll live long enough to see it too as it will never happen. Surely a headline with the words "Tiger kills huge brown bear" gets more views than "Brown bear carcass scavenged by a variety of predators".
So no, none of this incident is officially confirmed and the teenager manelts (I am afraid also fully grown adults, sadly) won't be able to leave this world in peace as they don't have a single clue on animal behavior or how an ecosystem works; they'll be on their death bed still eagerly waiting for a tiger to randomly pick a fight with a huge male brown bear. You know, it's a sad thing as those people are driven by one thing: they have a favorite animal (mostly a cat, surprise surprise) and their whole purpose is to prove that this animal can beat anything and is untouchable. They don't even care about animals, if you remove the aspect of animal fights/predation from a website, they'll just abandon it completely as they don't even care about other things.
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Post by Montezuma on Dec 5, 2022 10:54:12 GMT -5
theundertaker45, great saying. A tiger can't take down a smaller bear in a fight easily so how would it be able to defeat a much larger opponent? Thats a very logical and simple point to be considered yet still, to defend their stupidity, cats fans do not take this point seriously and rather make complexity and confusing arguments to show their factless beleif as truth. Opposition, debates, mature and fantansy arguments arn't only in animal fight topic. History, religion, politics etc also feature such things were there is a constabt was between polar sides try to prove themselves as right. Nevertheless, truth is always truth, even if it isn't accepted by fanboys; and so, bears can easily defeaf big cats in fight is always true even if cat boys don't accept it. 😎
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