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Post by yz on Jan 31, 2023 17:05:36 GMT -5
HBL-parity vs Weight-parity......... It's not about tiger or bear fanboys arguing over who wins and proving their superiority; it's about the actual truth. No matter you win or lose the argument, you are not going to be able to change the truth. Truth...... To compare them at equal head and body length is the fair way to compare a big cat to a bear. Consider that their skeletons are pretty-much the same in their structure. When we compare them at equal HBL, we discover just how overwhelmingly the bear is superior in girth. But yes; the big cat fanboys hate this. Sometimes, the truth hurts. Weight, durability, and brute strength are the bears' major advantages over a big cat. HBL-parity, which is completely fair, shows us the truth. When we match a big cat vs bear face-off at weight-parity, while the big cat retains his major advantages, which are speed and agility, the bear is robbed of his natural advantages. This is completely unfair. Also, at weight-parity, the big cat is actually much bigger that the bear. Its like arranging a fight between a man who stands 6 feet 6 inches tall against a man who stands 5 feet 6 inches tall. Because the big cat (lion or tiger) is given this tremendous size advantage, he now has a huge bite-force advantage. This is completely unfair. HBL is the most fair method of comparing similar-sized animals. The one who has the greater girth and musculature will naturally have some weight advantage. Interesting skeleton depictions. Where did you get them from ?
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Post by brobear on Jan 31, 2023 17:07:49 GMT -5
pinterest. Imagine this weight-parity contest (boxing, wrestling, MMA, other) two men step into the ring, each healthy, muscular, and in his prime. One of the fighters stands 6 ft. 6 in. tall while the other stands 5 ft. 6 in. tall. They both weigh 200 pounds each. The tall fighter is lean and muscular. The shorter fighter is barrel-chested, muscular but also some obvious body-fat. I would not consider this to be a fair fight. ____________________________________________________ Two fighters step into the ring. They each stand 6 feet tall and look each other in the eyes. One is lean and muscular. He is famous for his speed, quick reflexes, and agility. The second fighter is thicker built, both muscular and some obvious body fat. He is popular for his brutish strength. The lean fighter weighs 185 pounds. The broader fighter weighs 250 pounds. I consider this to be a fair fight. ____________________________________________________ However, when a brown bear is compared to a lion or a tiger at equal weights, then we find that the big cat is roughly 1 foot, or 12 inches, or 30.48cm longer than the bear; also roughly that same advantage in bipedal height. This in itself is proof that the bear is built far superior than a cat in terms of girth, weight, strength, and durability. How? Because the bear has to be down-sized to reach weight-parity with a big cat.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Feb 2, 2023 10:37:55 GMT -5
A thought of mine which came across my mind when doing the new Siberian tiger vs Ussuri brown bear comparison. How do they compare at equal head-body length and how do they compare at equal bipedal standing height?
Judging from the morphometrics of both an average adult male Siberian tiger should be about the same standing height as an average adult male Ussuri brown bear. How can this be when the head-body length gives the tiger a 10cm length advantage? Well, for two reasons: Firstly, the bear's hindquarters are a bit taller than the tiger's which would give him an advantage of a few cms when standing on the hindlegs; secondly, a bear can effortlessly stand fully upright whereas a tiger usually needs something to hang onto (a tree, another tiger while fighting...) and hence isn't fully straight but slightly diagonal. These two aspects make me consider that both should be able to look each other right in the eye on two legs despite the bear having a shorter torso. We can therefore conclude that a brown bear and a tiger at equal bipedal standing height have a weight difference of 150lbs between them which showcases the brown bear's bulk.
At equal head-body length however, I think that this weight difference would be even greater and that the bear would be the one looking down on the tiger. How much would it be? I haven't done a proper calculation but I'd estimate it to be more like 200lbs. At average sizes there should be no discussion whatsoever who the more physical and stronger species is.
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Post by brobear on Feb 13, 2023 7:00:41 GMT -5
There's really very little difference in HB length which makes this a size-parity fight, even though the girth of the bear gives him a weight advantage of roughly 200-pounds. And so, typically, Amur tiger vs Ussuri brown bear is a size-parity face-off debate.
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Post by brobear on Feb 20, 2023 4:36:30 GMT -5
I would like to clarify that at equal HBL, no matter the season, even in Spring or Summer, a brown bear has a significant weight advantage over a tiger. It's not merely Autumn fat, but the bear has heavier bones, a broader build, and much more muscle. So, when we compare a typical full-grown male Amur tiger to a typical full-grown male Ussuri brown bear, Spring or Summer, the bear is roughly 200-pounds heavier - and more so during the Autumn months. ___________________________________________________________ As OldGreenGrolar recently pointed out, these old mounted specimens are a good example of a typical tiger in an unlikely confrontation with a typical brown bear. Similar in size but the bear is more robust.
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Post by Hafstanni on Sept 11, 2023 8:03:04 GMT -5
Here is a muscle anatomy comparison between a tiger and a bear scaled to the same head-and-body length excluding the tail. Attachments:
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Post by Ransik on Sept 11, 2023 11:01:42 GMT -5
/\ Big cats are like walls - they look big from the front but quite thin on the back while bears are robust all over. Bears clearly have stronger bones and more muscle mass than felines and have reached close to a ton in weight, something a big cat can dream about.
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 12, 2023 2:49:02 GMT -5
The big cat has more muscles but less robust shoulder, less wider bicep muscle and longer back, which means less upper body strength.
Upper body strength >>>>> muscle mass = fact
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 12, 2023 2:52:18 GMT -5
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 12, 2023 3:06:28 GMT -5
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 12, 2023 5:58:15 GMT -5
Also "fat =/= less strength". There are fat people who are incredibly strong - Mark Henry is an example. They also forget that Siberian tiger fat up too as they are snow animals like bears.
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 12, 2023 11:06:54 GMT -5
The reason why bears have generally less muscle visibility than big cats is because of their thicker fur covering their skin, a gorilla is pound for pound stronger than a strong man yet has less muscle visibility due to thick fur covering their arms. However a wise man once told me "never judge by looks alone". Finding a bear with muscle visibility is hard but sometimes they show muscle visibility when they have to shed their fur in summer. In normal seaons coastal brown bears show more muscle visibility than the other bears due to the fact that summer is very hot in the zone they live.
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 7, 2023 5:38:55 GMT -5
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Post by Montezuma on Oct 7, 2023 12:09:26 GMT -5
Thats a very nice comparison there bro. Surely, bears have thicker, more enduring, stronger and robuster limbs than felids and canids.
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Post by brobear on Oct 7, 2023 13:35:26 GMT -5
Thats a very nice comparison there bro. Surely, bears have thicker, more enduring, stronger and robuster limbs than felids and canids. Thicker limbs, greater girth of neck, and greater girth of torso. Bears are simply built stronger than cats.
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 7, 2023 15:26:59 GMT -5
Oh yes. Dogs are along other cursorial predators the weakest predators pound for pound due to having long and skinny elbow and short forelimbs that are used in support in speed. Therefore they have the weakest upper body strength of every predator. With those skinny forelimbs dogs can't even wrestle, grapple nor strike. Arm strength is crucial for upper body strength.
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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2023 3:39:22 GMT -5
Dr. Blaire Van Valkenburgh shaggygod.proboards.com/Introduction Bears are unusual members of the order Carnivora, an order which also includes cats, dogs, weasels, civets, and hyenas on land, and seals, sea lions, and walruses in the sea. With the exception of the highly predacious polar bear, bears tend to be the most herbivorous of the carnivores, feeding on fruits and tubers more often than prey. Moreover, all eight species are large, with the smallest of them, the sun bear, weighing more than the wolf, the largest of the canids. Indeed, the polar bear and Kodiak brown bear are currently the largest of all carnivores. Males of these species occasionally weigh in at up to 800 kilograms (1,760 pounds), nearly the size of an adult male bison. Surprisingly, the large size of bears is not achieved through the rapid growth of cubs. In comparison with other carnivores, newborn bear cubs are tiny relative to their mothers and grow slowly. SPEED AND STRENGTH All bears have a large head with small ears followed by massive shoulders and a short back and | tail, all of which are supported on thick limbs and broad paws. Compared with big cats, bears have longer snouts and shorter, stiffer backs. Relative to large dogs, bears have bulky legs and much more spreading feet. Unlike these other carnivores, and more like humans, bears walk on the soles of their hindfeet, with their ankle joint positioned just above the ground. This condition is called plantigrade, and differs from the digitigrade posture of cats and dogs, in which the “soles” of the feet are elevated, along with the ankle, and only the toes touch the ground. To understand why bears are built so differendy from cats and dogs, it is essential to explain the benefits of digitigrade feet. Running around on your toes in a digitigrade posture is advantageous if speed is important. Speed is the product of stride length and stride frequency. Raising the ankle adds length to the part of the limb that determines stride length, that is from the shoulder or hip to the point of contact with the ground. Longer limbs take bigger strides, and digitigrade posture is therefore typical of mammals designed to run. Digitigrade animals also tend to have relatively long bones, or metapodials, making up the sole of the foot, adding further to total limb length. In addition, their limb muscles are much thicker close to the hip or shoulder joint, and taper towards the toes as long, elastic tendons. This construction reduces muscle mass near the ankles and feet, where the limb travels farthest during locomotion, and thus reduces inertial effects. A The skeletons of a bear and a domestic dog illustrate the difference between plantigrade and digitigrade postures. The dog is digitigrade, standing on its toes with the soles of its feet (metapodials) off the ground. By contrast, the soles of the bear's hindfeet are flat to the ground, as in humans, giving it a plantigrade posture. If one imagines the additional energy required to walk or run with ankle weights or heavy shoes, then the drawbacks of heavy feet become clear. There are yet further benefits to runners in having long tendinous muscle attachments. Tendons are elastic and act as energy-saving springs when running. They are stretched as the limb is flexed under the weight of the animal and then rebound, propelling the body forward and upward. So, digitigrade posture, long metapodials, and compact muscles with stretchy tendons are typical of carnivores built for speed. Bears are clearly not built for speed. Although their forefeet are semi-digitigrade, their hind-feet are plantigrade. Moreover, their metapodials are short and their muscles thick throughout the length of the limb. In many ways, bears are built more like badgers than other similar-sized carnivores, such as tigers, and it shows in their speed. The top speed recorded for both black and brown bears is 50 kilometers (30 miles) per hour, whereas the range for the fully digitigrade lion and wolf is 55 to 65 kilometers (35 to 40 miles) per hour. If bears are not built for speed, then what does the combination of massive limbs, plantigrade hindfeet, cumbersome paws, and a short back provide? Strength and mobility of limb movement are the answers. The stout limbs of bears are capable of producing large forces over a much greater range of motion than those of dogs or even cats. Bears use these capabilities when digging for food or shelter, fishing for salmon, climbing to escape danger, and battling with members of their own species as well as other predators. Imagine a wolf trying to perform a bear hug or climb a tree. Dogs have forfeited these abilities in favor of speed. Cats are more like bears in their range of possible movements, but lack strength. Bears may not be able to outrun danger, but can successfully defend themselves through brute force. Quote; "A The skeletons of a bear and a domestic dog illustrate the difference between plantigrade and digitigrade postures."
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 9, 2023 5:25:30 GMT -5
It seems that the leopard the pound for pound strongest big cat has less robust elbow than the sun bear, one of the least robust bears.
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 9, 2023 6:10:02 GMT -5
A sun bear is even more robust than a tiger at weight parity. The sun bear had more developed pectoral and more robust shoulders and elbow.
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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2023 9:47:38 GMT -5
Quote; "It seems that the leopard the pound for pound strongest big cat has less robust elbow than the sun bear, one of the least robust bears." This is why I push the fact that animals should be compared at equal HBL rather than pound-for-pound. Perhaps the leopard is pound-for-pound the strongest cat. But, he simply does not have have many pounds. Compare a leopard to a jaguar at equal HBL, and then you see clearly who is the stronger cat. But, neither the jaguar nor the tiger can claim greater girth at equal size (HBL) than a bear.
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