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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 16:42:50 GMT -5
tomI´ve seen those videos which you showed and they can be seen as you see, but also as I see. I can understand you in it, but for instance that one clear fight. In the end wolf gives the last bite, not the wolverine, even though they were locked for some time so, that wolverine got bite to snout of the wolf. You can see wolverine as winner by all means, but I see there pretty clear stalemate. That wolverine was panting and didn´t flich until wolf had walked away. And that wolf walked away in calm way. So it´s true that if you want me to say, that wolverine was clear winner, it won´t happen. I can´t say things like that if I don´t believe in it. What comes to main rule, I thought that it was self evident that it doesn´t mean always, especially when I mentioned that exceptions happen. My point was to bring in what all the people who actually spend time in the woods and study these animals tell and what they have documented. While fanboys use also authentic material, their way to edit material is the problem. One case is presented like 2-3 different cases and so on. Also if looking footage more closely, it´s unclear what really happens. When comparing those clips to clips which are shared by real wildlife photographers etc. differences are clear. Those people have no agendas. That second video from you was interesting and I hope to find all of it, so that it could be seen what happens in the beginnig, in the middle and in the end. That wolverine was making moves too, not only fighting because cornered even though it could have happened too. In some clips it could be seen that at least one wolf was very cautious with that wolverine while in some others wolves were more bold. But when no idea in which order things happened, difficult to say who won or lost. Obviously both sides gave and received. But from what it started and to what it ended finally... tough wolverine though in that one. Anyway I can share more too if you are interested. Articles, studies and videos. While in some wolverines put fight from various reasons, other animal is never hurt badly. If I try to debunk something, it´s wolverines reputation as killer of bigger predators. I have spend quite much time to find any justification for that reputation, but failed to find anything real.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 19:17:58 GMT -5
I watched this video again now just for curiosity. Some remarks what I see. Fight one in the video, in that wolverine is able to intimidate a wolf. And I would recommend to watch posture of the wolf when it runs, those ears and also tail how it goes between legs 1-2 times. That´s fear and/or submission from wolf. Then what comes to fights 2-4 and 6-7, too short clips for me to say too much, in start of fight 4 there is for sure a bold wolverine, how situation then ends... that clips doesn´t show it. Fight 6 also shows bold move from wolverine, but end is unclear once again because the way how video is edited. Fight 7 again so little, that what happened is difficult to say, for sure there were wolves and wolverine. Then that fight in clip 5. I would recommend, that anyone interested would look closer information about body language of wolves, tail postures etc. Then compare available information to what can be seen during the fight and when it ends. During the fight there are no signs of fear from the wolf, tail stays high/wagging all the time when it can be seen. Then again, when fight ends and narrator says "wolf is no match against tenacious wolverine", wolf is there in dominant posture (4:29-4:31) watching the wolverine staying on the ground. Then at 4:38 it can be seen how wolf walks away in pretty relaxed posture. I hope, that this clears a bit more, why I don´t see wolverine as winner there. That wolf simply doesn´t look like lost a fight, way too confident overall presence. Here something to compare with. At 1:00-1:06, 1:16-1:19 and 2:00-2:06 look at ears and tail in these parts (and body language overall), when wolf is afraid/submissive it doesn´t hide it too well. And then comparing to this, at 3:19-3:20 when looking at the wolf on the right and how it stands there after the brawl with bears. For instance here can be found information about wolf body language: www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfPack.html
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Post by brobear on Aug 19, 2021 23:57:22 GMT -5
Honey Badger:
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2021 0:05:37 GMT -5
Wolverine:
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2021 5:12:34 GMT -5
Both the honey badger and the similar wolverine each receive a lot of hype. Such sensationalism can backfire and result in a turnabout reputation as once the truth is out, they are considered as frauds. They're not really. Both of these Mustelids are tenacious predators who do not back down easily. Of course, even the toughest fighter has his limitations. A honey badger cannot survive a fight against a clan of hyenas or a pride of lions. He could be killed by a leopard while, in turn, his show of ferociousness might cause the leopard to back off. Its all about his ability to bluff. The wolverine has been known to use those same methods on bears ( and probably on cougars ). There is no way that a 40-pound wolverine could defeat a bear, a cougar, or a pack of wolves in a fight. But, sometimes, the bluff works. I will add that, pound-for-pound, there are few the equal of these two. In a fight between a 40-pound wolverine and a 40-pound lynx, I would wager on the mustelid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2021 5:45:56 GMT -5
brobearYeah, bluff is a good thing, when it´s done in right place. When it backfires, it´s big trouble. That wolverine video which you shared was a good example how misinformation can easily spread. I think, that you noticed it too. There from 0:40 forward that narrator is saying, that they (wolverines) are known to take down full grown moose, caribou and grizzlies. And even though it´s actually true with moose and most likely with caribou too, such thing has never been known to happen with bears, any bears. And then she continues with that polar bear claim, again based on nothing. Youtube has a lot of good, but it´s also source for massive amount of pure misinformation.
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2021 5:51:38 GMT -5
Yes, I clearly noticed. A 40-pound wolverines would never consider ambushing a 1,000+ pound moose nor even a full-grown caribou. But, they have been known to kill deer and wild sheep which are still impressive for so small a predator. If cornered, the wolverine might get in a few nasty bites on a bear before he is killed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2021 5:56:48 GMT -5
Yes, I clearly noticed. A 40-pound wolverines would never consider ambushing a 1,000+ pound moose nor even a full-grown caribou. But, they have been known to kill deer and wild sheep which are still impressive for so small a predator. If cornered, the wolverine might get in a few nasty bites on a bear before he is killed. They have killed some moose. It´s astonishing, but it has been documented in quite credible way. Key factor is a lot of snow almost immobilizing moose. In such situation wolverine is able to inflict enough damage to kill. When there is no snow, it´s impossible task. Moose and caribou aren´t like bears after all and they have certain limitations in some circumstances. "Normally" they wouldn´t be able to kill so big herbivores.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2021 5:57:52 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2021 6:05:17 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Aug 20, 2021 6:24:17 GMT -5
Reply #27 - I never heard of those events, but sure. A moose struggling in deep snow could not effectively defend himself. I had also read, maybe from Warsaw ( if I remember right ), that one of those reports of a tiger killing an adult rhino was true. The rhino was struggling in some deep mud at the time. Grizzlies are notorious for killing caribou and elk in rivers. Reply #28 - no surprise. Reply #29 - In the end, there was one honey badger attempting to bluff the hyena. But a spotted hyena is the "Queen of Mean."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2021 6:39:15 GMT -5
I´ll post a bit later some scientific sources concerning wolverine predation what comes to moose.
What comes to honey badgers, they are quite something. But what can´t be dismissed if talking about them in serious way, is their size. Loose and somewhat thick skin with aggressive attitude helps only to some point, not over it, no matter how much will there is. If intimidation doesn´t work, trying to fight seriously with a hungry hyena would be a very bad choice. Btw, if there would have been three African wild dogs the hyena would, most probably, have been in deep ****.
But even though, when knowing that in serious fight honey badger is no match for animals like hyenas or leopards, it still does often very impressive things. While often it can be seen, that it´s aggression comes from situation, that it has no other choice if it wants to get a chance to flee, many times it also shows something what can be called as pure courage and determination, imo. When it meets even threatening opponent, but in it´s limits in some way.
They are quite fascinating.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2021 11:31:39 GMT -5
Reply #27 - I never heard of those events, but sure. A moose struggling in deep snow could not effectively defend himself. I had also read, maybe from Warsaw ( if I remember right ), that one of those reports of a tiger killing an adult rhino was true. The rhino was struggling in some deep mud at the time. Grizzlies are notorious for killing caribou and elk in rivers. Reply #28 - no surprise. Reply #29 - In the end, there was one honey badger attempting to bluff the hyena. But a spotted hyena is the "Queen of Mean." It has been quite some time since I read about these moose predation things, but I found one publication concerning it, this is from International Symposium of Wolverine Research and Management. www.researchgate.net/publication/333998273_1st_International_Symposium_on_Wolverine_Research_and_Management_-_Agenda_and_AbstractsPage 22. Moose (Alces alces) mortality caused by wolverines in the forest zone of Krasnoyarsk Territory, Russia
Kozhechkin, Vladimir, Alexander Shishikin, and Igor Tumanov
"Analysis of data collected from 1967 to 2001 on moose mortality caused by wolverines during the snow cover period (n=19) showed that most instances of predation occurred in the middle and northern taiga subzones and only one verified incident was recorded in the south of the territory – in the Sayan Mountains."
"This is a region of abundant snow cover. It is characteristic for the snow cover to stay in the forest massifs for a lengthy period (240 days and longer) and reach depths of 0.8 to 1.6 m. It is the condition of the snow cover that allows a successful hunt by wolverines. Most of the ungulates (74% of total kills) have been killed by this predator during the period of snow abundance and the formation of a thin crust of ice on the snow, i.e., during the period of January through April; more seldom in November through December (21.0%) and in May (5.3%)."
"During an abundant snow cover period, the main victims of this predator among the moose population (n=17) were the less protected animals: short yearlings (23.5%), both female and male 2-year-olds (17.7%), adult pregnant females (41.1%), and much more seldom adult males (17.7%)."I don´t remember now if there are other studies with similar results. And when looking at time period what comes to these cases it can be seen, that it´s very rare thing to happen and demands obviously quite special circumstances. Maybe this is still a bit questionable thing if no other studies with similar conclusions. Anyway, no matter what it´s pretty safe to say, that when there is moose in wolverine scat or stomach content, in practically 100% of cases killer has been bear or wolves. Or hunters.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 9:37:03 GMT -5
I wonder what this place is, a lot of wolf/wolverine videos from there, very open terrain. Wolverine seems to have there nest digged in the snow.
Here two cases in which a wolf notice wolverine with food and goes to rob the wolverine.
In this second one can be seen quite well how slow wolverine is, wolf don´t need to put all in to catch it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 9:40:37 GMT -5
In this a wolf is chasing a wolverine, but this time wolverine is faster, interesting to see how situation changes when uphill is steep. Wolf don´t even try when seeing how fast wolverine is there.
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Post by brobear on Aug 22, 2021 9:49:18 GMT -5
Reply #33 - It's run grab and run, the wolf using his running speed to rob the wolverine. Reply #34 - Quote: "In this a wolf is chasing a wolverine, but this time wolverine is faster, interesting to see how situation changes when uphill is steep. Wolf don´t even try when seeing how fast wolverine is there." *This is interesting. The wolf is normally much faster on his feet, but on an uphill run, the power of the wolverine pays off.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 10:27:38 GMT -5
Reply #33 - It's run grab and run, the wolf using his running speed to rob the wolverine. Reply #34 - Quote: "In this a wolf is chasing a wolverine, but this time wolverine is faster, interesting to see how situation changes when uphill is steep. Wolf don´t even try when seeing how fast wolverine is there." *This is interesting. The wolf is normally much faster on his feet, but on an uphill run, the power of the wolverine pays off. Yeah, in those "robbing videos" wolverines seem to drop food when understanding that no way to get in any safe place in time. That uphill running video, I think that in that those big paws of wolverine pay off well, wolverine can run on the snow while wolf would have trouble if soft snow there. Wolf stops right away when seeing how fast wolverine is there. I wonder what this place is, I think that this poster has videos from the same place and maybe wolves are members of local pack. Sometimes there are wolves like almost playing around with wolverine, then in some wolf goes straight to take food from it and in one a wolf is just nonchalantly resting while a wolverine comes there and walks behind the wolf, then in front of it and then it goes away and both are calm all the time. It could be that people feed them and they are so calm because of it, only occasionally having something almost more like horseplay that fighting for survival. When no animal really hungry, not so much reason to have serious confrontations. I mean there is footage from one big elephant carcass in which lions tolerated even hyenas and no trouble. And there was at least one prime male lion present.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 11:02:14 GMT -5
April 2017, people in Finland managed to see and film a wolverine in the woods. There was some trap for beavers nearby, maybe explaining why wolverine was there.
Another spotting of wolverine while walking in the forest. September 2019 and Finland.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 14:20:08 GMT -5
Nature photographer manages to film wolverine. Funny to see how wolverine looks to direction of camera many time like thinking "what is there...."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 14:33:02 GMT -5
This is quite rare footage from Norway.
Here translation from description:
Watch a completely unique clip of a fight between a large male lynx and a wolverine. The recording was made by a game camera in Saltdal in Nordland. (Photo: Viltkamera.nina.no) Leftovers from lynx's meals are an important food source for the wolverine, and this can sometimes bring the wolverine in the place.
Fight happens from 0:50 forward, it´s quite short because wolverine chooses to flee soon. Lynx limps a bit, but later it´s back there again and no problems.
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