Bears and Apes

[brobear]

I have often noticed over the years that most bear enthusiasts also have an admiration, if not a love, for the great apes as well. This topic is to discuss those traits shared by both the bear and the ape. What do the mighty bears and the great apes have in common? 

[OldGreenGrolar]

Both of them have a high level of intelligence and good grappling skills. They are also plantigrades.

[brobear]

I agree with all said in reply #1. If you go to: 'Bears in General' and from there to: 'Bear Intelligence', you will find several sources from biologists and animal trainers comparing the intelligence of a bear to that of the great apes. Both are among the smartest non-human animals on the planet.
Both the bear and the ape have human-like physical anatomy traits. There was a time in Europe when, before the discovery of the great apes, bears were considered as being ancestral to people. Unfortunately, both the bear ( in Eurasia ) and the gorilla ( in Africa ) were once believed to have the notorious habit of kidnapping women and dragging them off into the surrounding forest. In Europe, it was believed that strong men were fathered by bears. ( go to 'Myth & Legend' - 'Original King of Beasts' ).

Both the bear and the great apes are known for their intelligence, their physical strength, and their human-like qualities. 
 
*Note: In 20th century movies, both bears and apes have been portrayed by actors in furry suits. You can't very well do that with a lion or a tiger.

[King Kodiak]

They both help to spread fruit seeds around the forest floors. They both help with biodiversity.

[kesagake]

Feb 5, 2021 3:27:19 GMT -5 brobear said:

I have often noticed over the years that most bear enthusiasts also have an admiration, if not a love, for the great apes as well. This topic is to discuss those traits shared by both the bear and the ape. What do the mighty bears and the great apes have in common? 

Well the only difference is that apes are less predatory, more social and much better fathers than bears.

[King Kodiak]

Well the only difference is that apes are less predatory, more social and much better fathers than bears.

Thats all very true. A gorilla is a great father, he does kick out his sons (the blackbacks), when these are ready for dominance or to mate with the females of the troop. He does not kill them though.

[brobear]

Feb 12, 2021 11:02:42 GMT -5 King Kodiak said:

Well the only difference is that apes are less predatory, more social and much better fathers than bears.

Thats all very true. A gorilla is a great father, he does kick out his sons (the blackbacks), when these are ready for dominance or to mate with the females of the troop. He does not kill them though.

My Dad was a great Dad. But when I quit school at the age of 16, there was a pickup truck came by the house the following morning. It took me to work; wheelbarrow pusher for a brick layer. I did that until I was officially signed-up for the U.S.M.C. 
A silverback gorilla is not about to care for and defend another silverback. 

[brobear]

Quote: Well the only difference is that apes are less predatory, more social and much better fathers than bears.

*That is the one major flaw in the bear's character. Being basically a loner, the male bear has nothing to do with his cubs. But I did read ( and its buried here in the Domain somewhere ) from one of the early bear experts ( maybe Ben East, William H. Wright, or Frank C. Craighead Jr. ) stated that the grizzly does not kill and consume cubs as often as once thought. He had only witnessed evidence ( from the kill site ) this happening once in his career. Also, he said that he had never heard of a grizzly killing his own cubs.

[Montezuma]

Both are intelligent, fighters, strong, big and gentle.

[Montezuma]

Feb 12, 2021 13:09:31 GMT -5 brobear said:

Quote: Well the only difference is that apes are less predatory, more social and much better fathers than bears.

*That is the one major flaw in the bear's character. Being basically a loner, the male bear has nothing to do with his cubs. But I did read ( and its buried here in the Domain somewhere ) from one of the early bear experts ( maybe Ben East, William H. Wright, or Frank C. Craighead Jr. ) stated that the grizzly does not kill and consume cubs as often as once thought. He had only witnessed evidence ( from the kill site ) this happening once in his career. Also, he said that he had never heard of a grizzly killing his own cubs.

I have seen dome documentries stating that males donot eat their own cubs while they would attack cubs belonging to other males. Grizzly bear is not a good dad but neither a bad dad.

[brobear]

Basically; their biggest difference ( other than genealogy ) is the fact that a bear is a loner while the great apes are social. Exception to the rule; a male orangutan is a loner.

[brobear]

My "A-List" of traits in common between the great ape and the bear:

1- Both are plantigrade.
2- Both can stand and walk bipedal.
3- Both have high intelligence.
4- Both possess great physical strength.
5- Both are exceptional grapplers.
6- Both have been thought to be ancestral to man.
7- Both have been accused of carrying women off into the forest.
8- Both are omnivores.
9- Both have exceptional binocular vision.
10- Both have a strong bite force.
11- Both have been portrayed on movies by a man in a hairy suit. 
12- The juveniles of both enjoy wrestling. 
13- Some bears are arboreal while others are terrestrial. Same holds true with apes. 
14- The skinned body of both appear very man-like. 
15- Both have been portrayed as the "monster" of horror movies. 

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2021 13:09:31 GMT -5 brobear said:

Quote: Well the only difference is that apes are less predatory, more social and much better fathers than bears.

*That is the one major flaw in the bear's character. Being basically a loner, the male bear has nothing to do with his cubs. But I did read ( and its buried here in the Domain somewhere ) from one of the early bear experts ( maybe Ben East, William H. Wright, or Frank C. Craighead Jr. ) stated that the grizzly does not kill and consume cubs as often as once thought. He had only witnessed evidence ( from the kill site ) this happening once in his career. Also, he said that he had never heard of a grizzly killing his own cubs.

I'm truly interested to see it. If you found the link can you share it here?

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2021 12:27:48 GMT -5 arctozilla said:

Feb 12, 2021 13:09:31 GMT -5 brobear said:

Quote: Well the only difference is that apes are less predatory, more social and much better fathers than bears.

*That is the one major flaw in the bear's character. Being basically a loner, the male bear has nothing to do with his cubs. But I did read ( and its buried here in the Domain somewhere ) from one of the early bear experts ( maybe Ben East, William H. Wright, or Frank C. Craighead Jr. ) stated that the grizzly does not kill and consume cubs as often as once thought. He had only witnessed evidence ( from the kill site ) this happening once in his career. Also, he said that he had never heard of a grizzly killing his own cubs.

I'm truly interested to see it. If you found the link can you share it here?

I can tell, that while it´s well known here, that brown bears kill cubs, it has been speculated, that father won´t kill his own cubs, even though he doesn´t otherwise participate raising. There is some indirect evidence from Sweden (I don´t have now source file, but I know that this information exists), where biologists observed exceptionally high cub mortality after several new male bears entered observation area from further away.

There is also interesting research what comes to behavior of female bears during mating times. Females with cubs move closer to human settlements during that time, while females without cubs stay where they are. Quite surprising thing and shows good, how smarts bears can be and learn things. 

But what comes to cub mortality, it can be discussed how often it happens, but fact remains, that male bears do kill cubs every now and then and female bears with cubs avoid male bears for a good reason, if they meet wrong male in wrong time, they can´t protect cubs, if cubs can´t flee to some safe place. 

What comes to it, that do male bears kill even their own cubs, it´s somewhat open question maybe, I´m not sure about it even though that example from Sweden indicates, that most dangerous would be... "unknown males" so to speak.

[Deleted]

arctozilla

Here one study from Sweden.

Quote from text:

"Causes of mortality in brown bears are shown in Table 1. The most frequent cause of natural death was traumatic injury; 16 bears (16% of total submissions) were
killed by other bears. All but one of these cases were young bears, and based on supporting observations from the field, these were classified as infanticide. Nine of these
bears were less than 1 yr old, and six were 1–2 yr old. Eight were females, and seven were males. One bear was an adult female, and in this case, a male bear killed both
cub and sow."


www.researchgate.net/publication/7652347_Diseases_and_mortality_in_free-ranging_brown_bear_Ursus_arctos_gray_wolf_Canis_lupus_and_Wolverine_Gulo_gulo_in_Sweden

[Deleted]

Here that other interesting study concerning male bears killing cubs.

Partial text here:




www.researchgate.net/publication/237750205_Factors_associated_with_loss_of_brown_bear_cubs_in_Sweden

[brobear]

Another interesting comparison of apes and bears is how they have been viewed very similarly by people, especially prior to better education ( I will say before the mid-1960s ).

I have read a great many books about bears, most especially the American grizzly ( see "Non-Fiction Books on Bears" Reply #192 ). I started off by reading about the historical grizzly. From these books I gained an unrealistic picture in my mind of a ferocious bear who could withstand rifle shot after rifle shot until a bullet to his brain or to his heart stopped him. A beast of such great strength and ferocity than no other animal could compare. It was modern-day naturalists and biologists who came along and repainted the true nature of the brown bear.

Likewise, the great apes, especially the gorilla, was seen as a man-like monster who terrorized the dark jungles of Africa ( see topic "Great Apes in Legend and Fiction" ). If one was to find vintage books with tales of the gorilla, he would discover a beast unafraid of lions, crocodiles, or any other living beast. A beast more feared and respected by human hunters that the elephant, the rhinoceros, or the lion.

The image of both the brown bear and the gorilla has changed dramatically during my lifetime. From monster to a beautiful part of our natural planet which should be admired and protected. 
 
www.granger.com/results.asp?W=4&F=0001&Step=1&screenwidth=1243 
 

[arctozilla]

"*That is the one major flaw in the bear's character. Being basically a loner, the male bear has nothing to do with his cubs. But I did read ( and its buried here in the Domain somewhere ) from one of the early bear experts ( maybe Ben East, William H. Wright, or Frank C. Craighead Jr. ) stated that the grizzly does not kill and consume cubs as often as once thought. He had only witnessed evidence ( from the kill site ) this happening once in his career. Also, he said that he had never heard of a grizzly killing his own cubs."

Found info concerning male bears not killing their own offspring. I will send you on private messages.

[brobear]

Jul 22, 2023 7:26:07 GMT -5 arctozilla said:

"*That is the one major flaw in the bear's character. Being basically a loner, the male bear has nothing to do with his cubs. But I did read ( and its buried here in the Domain somewhere ) from one of the early bear experts ( maybe Ben East, William H. Wright, or Frank C. Craighead Jr. ) stated that the grizzly does not kill and consume cubs as often as once thought. He had only witnessed evidence ( from the kill site ) this happening once in his career. Also, he said that he had never heard of a grizzly killing his own cubs."

Found info concerning male bears not killing their own offspring. I will send you on private messages.

Better yet, post it on the forum (the Domain) where you decide it belongs and take credit for your research.