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Post by brobear on Dec 19, 2019 8:57:09 GMT -5
There have been, since the early years of online animal face-off debates, a lot of facts and fiction posted about big cats and bears in terms of pushing and pulling strength. Let's clear this matter up. It has often been said that a big cat has greater strength in pulling while a bear has greater strength in pushing. I completely agree that a bear has greater pushing strength. Just watch a polar bear burst through thick sheets of ice by pushing. I will use the lion as my example. A lion manages to ambush a cow buffalo. The bovine is strong and heavy. It takes tremendous strength to pull the buffalo down onto the ground. The muscles of the big cat's arms, after millions of years being ambush predators, are designed for pulling. The claws act as velcro to hold while the big cats pulls with massive muscles. A bears arms are even more heavily muscled, but used differently: over-turning logs and big rocks, digging in ground riddled with rocks and roots, and pushing over dead trees to get at honey or other delicacies. I agree with all of this which has pretty-much been confirmed. What I don't agree with is the misconception that some big cat enthusiasts have concluded. Some claim that a lion or a tiger can drag a heavier carcass and drag it further than can a grizzly or a polar bear. Their theory is based on the fact that a cat has a more supple spine which can bend giving the big cat a greater use of his limbs while pulling. My thoughts are, the shorter sturdier back of the bear gives him greater strength. In any case, which Carnivoran can pull the heaviest carcass has yet to be resolved.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 19, 2019 17:12:12 GMT -5
"which Carnivoran can pull the heaviest carcass has yet to be resolved."
Well, thats true. But lets analize this. Big cats have more explosive power than bears, mostly because of that flexible spine. Brown bears have that huge shoulder hump which is pure muscle, this powers its front limbs. Bears have larger deltoid/pectoral muscles than big cats. The scapula is wider and more robust than big cats. So in theory, brown bears should be the ones that can pull more weight.
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Post by brobear on Dec 20, 2019 2:49:21 GMT -5
Ok so this is epidose # 3 of "man vs bear" (i recorded this part with my cell phone but i am unable to post it here). here you can see Casey Anderson, who is a bear biologist and expert, state this: " grizzly pushing power is unmatched out in the wild" "aside from that signature shoulder hump, their arms and legs work in unison to generate ridiculous force"
Massive muscles designed more for pushing than for pulling.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 24, 2019 15:10:08 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Dec 24, 2019 17:07:56 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/Ronald M. Nowak in Walker's Mammals of the World Sixth Edition (1999) states the following: According to Banfield (1974), the usual gait is a slow walk. U. arctos is capable of moving very quickly, however, and can easily catch a black bear. Its long foreclaws are not adapted for climbing trees. It has excellent senses of hearing and smell but relatively poor eyesight. The brown bear has great strength. Banfield saw one drag a carcass of a horse about 90 meters. In another case, a 360-kg grizzly killed and dragged a 450-kg bison. p. 686.
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Post by brobear on Dec 24, 2019 17:30:03 GMT -5
BEARS by Ben East:
Whatever he weighs, the grizzly is a low-slung, thickset and very muscular animal. His legs are short and stout almost beyond belief. His heavy head is supported by a burly neck thicker than the width of his skull, and the whole impression he creates is one of great power. He lives up to his appearance too, and his strength is hard to believe. The early records tell of grizzlies dragging off the carcass of a full-grown buffalo ( bison ) bull. He handles a domestic steer, a dead moose or bull elk with no difficulty. I know of one case where a bear took a four-hundred-pound elk up and around a steep mountain for a quarter mile and finally dragged it through a series of rough washes before stopping to feed. Four or five men could hardly have duplicated that feat of strength.
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 5:09:48 GMT -5
Not a fight but a sports contest. A typical mountain grizzly from Wyoming or Montana pulling ( let's say ) a tough moose hide against either of the two biggest cats, an African lion or a Bengal tiger. The bear and the big cats have totally different morphology. So... let the games begin.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 21, 2020 5:11:48 GMT -5
The grizzly bear will win the tug o war simply because it is heavier and stronger.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 21, 2020 5:36:18 GMT -5
Nice thread, but i though you said only scenarios real or fictional that would take place in the wild. A tug-of-war between these animals does not sound like something that would take place in the wild, lmao.
"All face-off topics will be real or fictional scenarios taking place in the wild"
domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/918/read-first
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 5:44:31 GMT -5
This is not a face-off debate. Also, note that I chose a moose hide as the tug-o-war implement. In other words, a fictional pulling contest - in the natural world - having to do not only about who is the strongest but other morphology issues. Any more complaints?
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 21, 2020 5:50:16 GMT -5
Nope. And since the grizzly has the strongest front limbs of any predator due to his huge shoulder hump, and it also has a better developed deltoid crest than big cats, not to mention more powerful biceps muscles, than obviously the grizzly would leave those 2 big cats in the dust. Casey Anderson said that no animal has the pulling strength of a grizzly.
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Post by brobear on Apr 23, 2020 6:42:42 GMT -5
Strength of the Tiger: 225 kg = 496 pounds / 200 m. = 656 feet. Tug-O-War anyone? 225 kg ( 496 pounds ) tiger drags a 1-tonne ( 2,000 pounds ) carcass for nearly 200 m. ( 61 feet ).
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 23, 2020 6:58:33 GMT -5
You believe that brobear? Anyways, a large brown bear would be able to drag that and even more.
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Post by brobear on Apr 23, 2020 9:26:45 GMT -5
PCTS posted concerning a big cat's pulling ability when asked about how the cat's supple spine works as an advantage. Quote: The flexibility in the spine allows them to anchor while they pull. It certainly does help with dragging especially with budging the weight to start that momentum or pulling over rough terrain. The curved spine allows them to plant their hind legs and create leverage. They can keep their feet planted and pull with their entire body strength and the flexibility allows them to maintain that pulling power for a longer range of motion.
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Post by brobear on Apr 25, 2020 6:24:16 GMT -5
Grizzly Tug-O-War with Lion or Tiger: No no no; this topic cannot end here. !!!
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 25, 2020 7:06:31 GMT -5
Grizzly Tug-O-War with Lion or Tiger: No no no; this topic cannot end here. !!! We might need some strength testing in terms of tug o war but I like I said, I am sure the larger male grizzly will win.
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Post by brobear on Apr 25, 2020 7:30:36 GMT -5
Boar Grizzly vs African Lion or Bengal Tiger in a tug-o-war contest would be ( imho ) mostly a matter of technique vs brute strength. Also note that ( imho ) the big cat will have the jaw-strength advantage. The big cat's jaw strength is aimed at prolonged holding ( suffocation or strangulation ) once again: ( imho ). I believe that the advantage of stamina might be in reverse here; in terms of who can hold onto the moose hide the longest. But the grizzly will have the weight and strength advantage ( Wyoming / Montana mountain grizzly ). A typical specimen of each species. Perhaps on day #1 the lion will pull against the tiger. On day #2 the winner competes with the bruin.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 25, 2020 7:39:01 GMT -5
The female spotted hyena has stronger jaws than a male leopard yet they are about equal in a tug o war match. Therefore, tug o war is not based on jaw strength alone. A tiger and lion might have stronger jaws at weight parity but a male grizzly is stronger overall.
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Post by brobear on Apr 25, 2020 7:47:43 GMT -5
Quote: The female spotted hyena has stronger jaws than a male leopard yet they are about equal in a tug o war match. Therefore, tug o war is not based on jaw strength alone. A tiger and lion might have stronger jaws at weight parity but a male grizzly is stronger overall. *Never once said that a tug-o-war is based on jaw strength alone. But jaw strength is one advantage probably for the big cat. This contest is ( imho ) not a one-sided contest. To be honest, I'm not sure who of the three might win the trophy.
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Post by brobear on Apr 26, 2020 0:35:30 GMT -5
A Historic Grizzly... A friend of mine was a guide in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. While packing with horses along a trail that paralleled a clff, one of the pack horses slipped and catapulted several hundred feet to the bottom. Doug climbed down to claim all the gear, and decided that the dead horse would serve as bait for a grizzly. Knowing there were grizzlies in the area, he waited high above the horse through the night with the necessary equipment and gear in anticipation of an opportunity at daylight. As the sun lifted in the eastern sky, Doug carefully studied the landscape below, only to discover the horse was missing! He was totally bewildered as to what happened to the horse! Doug climbed down the cliff and found that the horse was dragged a couple hundred yards to the Middle Fork of the Flathead River by a grizzly! Doug waded the river and continued following the drag marks, which led to a huge bear cache! After carefully surveying the sight he decided against any more grizzly hunting. The one thing that stood out in his mind was the awesome strength of an animal that was able to drag a mountain horse that distance!
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