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Post by theundertaker45 on Aug 8, 2022 7:32:14 GMT -5
I think we should collect as many morphometrics and individuals as possible for each species; there are surely more measurements out there. Here are two Pantanal jaguars for example which were hunted at the Mato Grosso in the 1970s:
Weight: 105kg, 119kg (both empty) HB-Length (straight line): 150cm, 158cm Chest Girth: 109cm for both Neck Girth: 65cm for both Forearm Girth: 41cm and 43cm Biceps Girth: 55cm and 58cm Total Score of the cleaned skull: 48.9cm and 51cm
If you look at the relations of weight to chest girth in those two jaguars in the higher weight class; you'll see that they have proportionally thicker chests than the Guatemalan jaguars. The same also applies to the neck but to a lesser degree.
The largest sample for leopards may actually come from AfriCat as they collared and measured 59 adult male leopards from Namibia (this status report is from the mid-late 2000s). Measurements are:
Weight: 53kg (up to 69kg) Chest Girth: 78.5cm (up to 89cm) Neck Girth: 51cm (up to 59cm)
If there are more tables, just share them here; then we can make a database.
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Post by brobear on Aug 9, 2022 7:46:45 GMT -5
Luipaard - "Big male leopard called Shujaa, he looks like a Jaguar" Pckts - He’s the biggest male Leopard I’ve seen, very likely he’s a 90-100kg monster. *I cannot disagree with these two: (estimated between 200 and 220 pounds)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 12:30:30 GMT -5
He's considered one of the biggest males in the Mara. One of the other contenders is 'Bahati's boyfriend' or Oloopi. A heavily built male with a thick neck and deep chest:
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Post by arctozilla on Aug 10, 2022 13:05:18 GMT -5
/\ he's nowhere as heavily built as Grumpy. Also a polar bear is stronger than a leopard pound for pound (Imo) because it drag huge cetacean carcasses out of water. I've never seen a cat doing this.
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Post by brobear on Aug 10, 2022 13:41:51 GMT -5
/\ he's nowhere as heavily built as Grumpy. Also a polar bear is stronger than a leopard pound for pound (Imo) because it drag huge cetacean carcasses out of water. I've never seen a cat doing this. Who is Grumpy?
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Post by arctozilla on Aug 10, 2022 16:28:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 11:33:54 GMT -5
I never said he's more heavily built than a large grizzly bear did I? I do think he would outweigh a Syrian brown bear sow though. Speaking of Syrian brown bears, I'm pretty sure their relationship is akin to the Siberian tiger and Ussuri brown bear relationship, where the male pantherine dominates young ones and sows but not boars. Warning signs in Golestan, where the Persian leopard is sympatric with the Syrian brown bear:
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Post by brobear on Aug 11, 2022 13:07:23 GMT -5
All we have at this point is a rounded figure for the Syrian brown bear in general; average weight - 220 to 250 pounds. From WildFact - In fact, the heaviest leopard recorded in Iran was of 91 kg, as heavy as the largest South African leopards. This is their top weight: 91kg or 200.62 pounds. Leopards are not big enough to hunt full-grown bears. A big cat will always choose a bear smaller than himself.
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Post by brobear on Aug 11, 2022 13:23:31 GMT -5
Leopards are no pushovers, especially the bigger and dominant subspecies such as Persian leopards who are sympatric with Syrian brown bears. Here's a size comparison between a male leopard and a Syrian brown bear: A Syrian brown bear with cub tried to chase off a leopard from its kill which resulted in the death of the cub: This had to be a big male leopard defending his kill from a small she-bear. Even if this leopard was roughly at weight-parity with the bear, going head-to-head against the bear is very unusual cat behavior. Even if it was merely a fraction of a minute skirmish before the she-bear changed her mind, this was an odd occurrence. Perhaps the leopard had already had a few unsuccessful hunts before making this kill; thus desperate not to lose it. A shame about the cub.
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Post by brobear on Aug 11, 2022 14:20:53 GMT -5
About Reply #306 just above: After giving this story more thought, there is more that simply doesn't add up.
1- It is highly unusual for a she-bear to displace a large predator for a carcass. 2- It is highly unusual for any big cat to go face-to-face against a bear of near size parity. 3- This is odd behavior for both the leopard and the she-bear.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 11:57:51 GMT -5
About Reply #306 just above: After giving this story more thought, there is more that simply doesn't add up. 1- It is highly unusual for a she-bear to displace a large predator for a carcass. 2- It is highly unusual for any big cat to go face-to-face against a bear of near size parity. 3- This is odd behavior for both the leopard and the she-bear. Mother bears are notorious for being extremely aggressive. Perhaps the mother bear with cub(s) stumbled upon a leopard with a kill in which it would automatically charge due to instincts. Sri Lankan leopards interact with Sri Lankan sloth bears and one even defended a kill against a bigger sloth bear: As of today there have been two fights to death, one where a male leopard killed a young sow and one where the sloth bear killed a leopard but had to be taken down. From what I've seen and read so far, both seem not interested in fighting each other.It's not odd for a leopard subspecies that's arguably the biggest in the world and the apex predator. The Persian leopard's behaviour is understudied compared to Indian leopards despite both being an Asian subspecies. Same goes for the Sri Lankan leopard's point of view; it's the apex predator and lives sympatric with a sloth bear of similar size. They have different diets so they don't see each other as competitors. In India it is different as the leopard is wary of dholes and tigers except for some places where these competitors are absent. Not only that, the Indian sloth bear is even bigger here so there's absolutely no reason to mess with it, especially since tigers can struggle with them.
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Post by arctozilla on Aug 12, 2022 12:46:02 GMT -5
/\ "one defended his kill from a sloth bear bigger than itself"
That was a Sri Lankan sloth bear, which is more passive than its mainland cousin. He also made it just run away (even a house cat can make a gator run away). I doubt a leopard would attack a male adult Indian sloth bear.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 14:00:43 GMT -5
/\ "one defended his kill from a sloth bear bigger than itself" That was a Sri Lankan sloth bear, which is more passive than its mainland cousin. He also made it just run away (even a house cat can make a gator run away). I doubt a leopard would attack a male adult Indian sloth bear. I suggest you quote the entire text next time since I was clearly talking about Sri Lankan sloth bears. The "one" referred to Sri Lankan leopards and they only interact with... Sri Lankan sloth bears. Second is that brobear said " It is highly unusual for any big cat to go face-to-face against a bear of near size parity." while this leopard was clearly smaller than the sloth bear. It is highly unusual for a smaller cat to take on a bigger bear. However, a cat taking on a similar-sized bear isn't highly unusual, it's just not that common because any bear is dangerous and IMO stronger than cats overall albeit that doesn't mean cats cannot beat similar-sized bears. It really depends on the bear subspecies/population as is with all hypothetical matchups. That's why I favour big Persian male leopards over Syrian brown bears bar big boars despite them being brown bears. At the same time I personally believe no predator can take on the biggest Kodiak bear. The reason I say predator is because hippo's or elephants can definitely destroy any bear. I also clearly said Indian sloth bears are even bigger than Sri Lankan sloth bears whereas Indian leopards are smaller and subordinate to tigers so they would avoid said sloth bears. I'm unsure who's bigger between Indian sloth bear boars and Syrian brown bear boars, but the biggest male leopards can definitely take on both the males (not at the same time obviously) unless the boars are very large. When average-sized or below they can be beaten.
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Post by brobear on Aug 12, 2022 14:40:51 GMT -5
Sri Lankan sloth bear - sow: 150 pounds. Sri Lankan sloth bear - boar: 230 pounds. Indian sloth bear - sow: 165 pounds Indian sloth bear - boar: 242 pounds. Quote: Mother bears are notorious for being extremely aggressive. Perhaps the mother bear with cub(s) stumbled upon a leopard with a kill in which it would automatically charge due to instincts. *I agree with this assessment. Quote: Sri Lankan leopards interact with Sri Lankan sloth bears and one even defended a kill against a bigger sloth bear: *Sometimes a cougar will stand his ground against a black bear or even a grizzly, in defense of his kill, using paw-swipes in a swipe and dodge method while snarling ferociously, in an attempt at intimidation. Sometimes this works, usually not. The cougar will never make any full-body contact with the bear. The same holds true for the leopard and the sloth bear. Any bear of near-size-parity to any big cat and killed by that cat was taken from ambush.
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Post by brobear on Aug 12, 2022 14:48:54 GMT -5
Quote: That's why I favour big Persian male leopards over Syrian brown bears bar big boars despite them being brown bears. *Question: What is the size range of Persian leopards and what is their averages? Also note; I have yet to find any reliable source of an accurate weight for Syrian brown bears.
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Post by brobear on Aug 12, 2022 15:08:42 GMT -5
Indian Leopard - Sun Bear
Face-to-face, I would wager on the sun bear.
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Post by arctozilla on Aug 12, 2022 15:58:53 GMT -5
Haven't seen study on Syrian brown bear yet but I believe an adult Syrian brown bear boar would beat male adult leopard, considering a female Ussuri brown bear can give tough fight to a male adult tiger.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 16:37:38 GMT -5
Quote: That's why I favour big Persian male leopards over Syrian brown bears bar big boars despite them being brown bears. *Question: What is the size range of Persian leopards and what is their averages? Also note; I have yet to find any reliable source of an accurate weight for Syrian brown bears. Their weights differ geographically, those in northern Iran weigh more due to climate change and prey abundance. In Iran, males can weigh 40kg-115kg and females 26kg-60kg. Males in central and southern Iran weigh circa 50kg whereas males in northern Iran on average weigh at least 70kg just to give you an idea.
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Post by brobear on Aug 12, 2022 22:52:50 GMT -5
So, the population of the biggest leopards are living in or near Iran, with males weighing from 40kg (88 pounds) to 115kg (254 pounds). While we have no actual biological study to look at, what sources we do have places the Syrian brown bear at from 220 to 250 pounds. So, we can conclude that probably or maybe the average male Syrian brown bear was roughly at weight-parity with the biggest leopards.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 4:55:39 GMT -5
So, the population of the biggest leopards are living in or near Iran, with males weighing from 40kg (88 pounds) to 115kg (254 pounds). While we have no actual biological study to look at, what sources we do have places the Syrian brown bear at from 220 to 250 pounds. So, we can conclude that probably or maybe the average male Syrian brown bear was roughly at weight-parity with the biggest leopards. With the exception of leopards from western Central Africa (Gabon, DR Congo & Congo-Brazzaville), yes the biggest leopards are to be found in northern Iran (Golestan and Mazandaran provinces). The 40kg figure is of a Persian male from either southern or central Iran. Here they weigh 40kg-50kg whereas a young male from Golestan already weighed 64kg. Here's a gigantic male with a neck as thick as a Boeing in the Hyrcanian forests of the Mazandaran province: Leopards roaming in West Africa are an enigma regarding size. I have seen mediocre-sized ones and at the same time huge impressive individuals. You may delete the following photos if inappropriate, but here's an enormous individual killed by locals in Guinea:
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