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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 10, 2021 14:29:37 GMT -5
Never said it was. I just dont think the Ussuri black bear would be above a wolf pack in the food chain, that's all. I dont see it winning an interaction either.
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Post by brobear on Jun 10, 2021 14:36:09 GMT -5
Never said it was. I just dont think the Ussuri black bear would be above a wolf pack in the food chain, that's all. I dont see it winning an interaction either.
The truth would be found at a kill site. But then, black bears are not as notorious as brown bears at displacing other predators. At this point, we have no accounts of a black bear displacing wolves, nor wolves displacing a black bear. Stalemate.
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Post by brobear on Jun 11, 2021 3:26:51 GMT -5
I've given this matter some thought. I've never once read of an American black bear displacing a wolf pack from a carcass. Most likely, the same holds true for the Asiatic black bears.
RFE ( Russian Far East )- Carnivores and Omnivores listed as top of the food chain ( IMO ):
1- adult male brown bear. 2- adult male tiger. 3- adult female brown bear. 4- wolf pack. 5- adult male black bear. 6- adult tigress. 7- adult female black bear. 8- wild boar. 9- leopard.
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Post by Montezuma on Jun 11, 2021 6:42:29 GMT -5
I think that its real that tigers eliminate wolves. Wolves donot form large packs like dholes or painted dogs.
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Post by Montezuma on Jun 11, 2021 6:45:30 GMT -5
Mine thoughts are that in RFE there are 3 apex predators. 1. Brown bear 2. Siberian tiger 3. Gray wolves
Male brown bears rules over all others while female brown bears have sometimes to be aware of male bears, male tigers and wolf packs.
Black bears are not dominant over wolves as grizzlies. Female tiger are also not good against wolves. After all RFE is Domain of the Ussuri grizzly.
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Post by brobear on Jun 11, 2021 6:49:28 GMT -5
Big cats will eliminate as much predator competition as they possibly can. Brown bears are better off with other predators living within their domains. Big difference. Other predators in a brown bear’s Domain, easy access to meat. Big cats also usurp from predators weaker than them but having other predators in their territory also means less meat for them. Brown bears are "natural born" kleptoparasites. They take what they want from other more highly skilled predators. But, it could be that too many predator species might cause large herbivores to retreat to other locations, leaving the big cat with fewer prey choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 6:51:42 GMT -5
Can I just ask a question: Is that true? Tigers almost caused Wolves extinction in Russia? I saw Tiger Fanboys saying that. That's what it looks like, there is several reports on that. Maybe its because wolves are direct competitors with tigers, and tigers eliminate them. Anyways, it would be great to know the opinion of our wolf expert, thenormalguy.No. They do not eliminate wolves, they suppress them supposedly. Which means there are less wolves where there is tigers but they stays at a stable numbers. Like coyotes before and after the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone. Their numbers dropped and then stabilized
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 6:55:32 GMT -5
I think that its real that tigers eliminate wolves. Wolves donot form large packs like dholes or painted dogs. Wolves make packs as large as those animals. 3 packs in Yellowstone had and likely still have over 20 members each and one had 35 members at the beginning of 2021. But a lot of young wolves splitted and some died. They were 35 for almost a year !
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Post by brobear on Jun 11, 2021 6:56:21 GMT -5
As for the male wild boar; it is my understanding... ( I could be wrong on this ) ...the big "monster hogs" ranging from 600 to 700+ pounds have become extremely rare. I figure this from numbers I find on this topic. If true; the decline on "monster hogs" is probably due to human hunters ( both legal and illegal ).
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 11, 2021 8:56:21 GMT -5
You are correct, sorry, i used the wrong word. They suppress them yes.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 11, 2021 9:02:34 GMT -5
As for the male wild boar; it is my understanding... ( I could be wrong on this ) ...the big "monster hogs" ranging from 600 to 700+ pounds have become extremely rare. I figure this from numbers I find on this topic. If true; the decline on "monster hogs" is probably due to human hunters ( both legal and illegal ). And tigers would avoid those huge boars, they wont hunt them, too big and dangerous.
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Post by brobear on Jun 11, 2021 10:59:54 GMT -5
www.bucksbullsbears.com/2018/09/24/the-surprising-relationship-between-wolves-bears/ The Surprising Relationship Between Wolves & Bears My 18-year-old son Dawson sat in a stand beside me as we watched a medium sized bear feed at the bait. It was the first day of my bear hunt in Ontario a few years ago, and Dawson was filming the hunt for me as he often did. The bear was not one I would consider shooting on the first day of the hunt. Suddenly, the bear stood up and looked into the bush, then spun around and rocketed out of the area as if he had been shot out of a canon. Dawson reached for the camera and turned it on. He’s filmed enough bear hunts to know that when the small bear leaves in a hurry, there’s a good chance a bigger bear is about to make an appearance. But I was conflicted as I watched the bear streak out of the area. I’d seen a lot of bears around baits and I had never seen one leave in such a state of total panic. A moment later, the issue came into clear focus as a timber wolf trotted in and looked over the area. He sniffed around a little, made a half circle around the bait site, then left on the trail of that 200-pound bear. It wasn’t my first introduction to the fear that wolves put into bears, but it was a graphic one. As wolf numbers have increased across North America in the last couple decades, their effect on deer populations has generated a lot of attention among sportsman’s groups and in the media. No doubt there are a lot of teeth in the woods, and wolves have significantly reduced deer numbers in many areas, but there are other animals suffering at the rise in wolf populations and they haven’t been getting the attention they deserve. The black bear is a prime example. Many bear hunters, guides and outfitters are getting a wake-up call about how the high numbers of wolves and low numbers of deer are affecting the amount of predation on black bears. On my bear baits in Minnesota, I have seen active bear baits go completely dead when wolves move into the area. Wolves will eat some types of bear bait, but that’s not the real reason they hang around. Wolves eat bears. And what better place to find a bear than the high-percentage area in the vicinity of a bear bait? I have long suspected that wolves could be a real problem for bear populations, in fact I have seen wolf scat full of bear fur on several occasions, but in speaking with biologists, none could verify that it’s common for wolves to kill and eat bears. In fact, most biologists are very reluctant to say anything that would cast wolves in a bad light. Considering the emotionally-charged political climate surrounding wolves, many people within the game departments of states where wolf populations are at issue just seem to avoid the subject. Woodsmen, trappers, hunters and outfitters in areas with high bear-wolf interactions aren’t so inhibited. Mike Foss, a long time bear hunting outfitter in Northern Wisconsin is frustrated by the lack of understanding about how much effect wolves have on bear populations. He has come across the remains of bears killed by wolves in the forests and he feels the problem is increasing. “Not only is our deer population having a difficult time rebounding from dismal numbers caused in part by wolf predation over the past decade,” he says, “but some bear guides, including me, believe our great bear population is literally under attack, specifically cubs and younger, immature bears.” He claims that much of the predation takes place in the winter where wolves pull bears out of the dens and eat them. He cites a fellow guide who found evidence of wolf predation at three bear dens late last winter. And he’s not alone. Tom Ainsworth, long-time bear outfitter in the Duck Mountains of western Manitoba says it’s common in his area as well. He puts out bear bait on snow machine in late winter and he’s noted where wolves have killed bears on several occasions. He says wolves will kill bears whenever they have the right opportunity. One of his guides is a veteran wolf trapper who claims to have come across many cases where wolves have caught bears in their dens, drug them out and killed them. Wolves will also target cubs all year whenever they are far enough from a climbable tree. In that part of Manitoba, trappers and hunters target wolves all winter which helps keep the problem somewhat under control. But in Wisconsin, the lack of opportunities to control wolf populations along with mild winters has created a perfect storm for high predation rates and many bear enthusiasts are becoming alarmed. There are more cameras in the woods than at any time in the past, and instances of interactions between bears and wolves are on the rise. The advent of phones with cameras has added to the documentation of wolf predation on bears. Blogs, social media and YouTube have examples with photos and videos show evidence of bears being pulled from the dens and eaten by wolves. But are the cameras just catching what has been common all along, or are the numbers of bears being killed by wolves on the rise? Mike Foss feels that wolves are targeting bears more and more. “Is there now such a predator-prey imbalance—not helped by federal judicial protection of the wolf—that deer numbers can’t recover and other prey, including the black bear, is providing an alternative food source? I believe that is probable.” It’s difficult to quantify just how big this problem is. There haven’t been any studies done on it, and considering the political climate surrounding the topic of wolves, don’t expect one anytime soon. But as more and more voices are being raised, it’s clear the problem is growing. One of the most simple solutions of course would be to harvest more wolves and bring their population back into balance. But it’s not that easy. In the western US, that move is underway as wolf hunting is a growing sport. But in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan, the states’ ability to manage the wolf population has been hampered by court decisions that prevent hunting and trapping by preventing the delisting of wolves from the Endangered Species Act. The ESA was designed to bring threatened species back from the brink of extinction, and it has obviously worked in the cases of some animals. The wolf and the bald eagle are perfect examples of how the ESA can be effective. However, animal extremists are using the ESA as a political weapon. The black bears and the people who rely on them for food and recreation are suffering because of it. In areas of Canada where hunting and trapping of wolves is legal, residents target them for their fur, as trophies and as a way to give the prey species some much-needed relief. There is a growing number of people from the states who are interested in a wolf hunt, but the cost and success rates have been a hindrance. Wolf pelts are at their most impressive in the early winter, and at that time a bunch of other hunting seasons compete for their attention. John Palson, my outfitter on that Ontario baited bear hunt mentioned earlier, is working to see the price of nonresident wolf tags lowered, which he believes will give incentive to bear hunters to have a wolf tag in their pocket when bear hunting. He believes this will help him reduce his wolf population. But it remains to be seen how many bear hunters will shoot a wolf during the August and September bear seasons when their pelt is substandard. Another option would be for outfitters to offer wolf hunts later in the fall when the wolf skins are more desirable for mounts and rugs. Some are already doing that. The wolves can be hunted at the bear bait sites by using meat scraps, roadkills, or game animal bones and trimmings after the bear hunters are gone, then placing hunters at those locations for a wolf hunt. Others will chop a hole in a frozen lake within shooting distance of a blind on the shore, then dump in butcher trimmings. As the trimmings freeze into the surface of the lake, the wolves much claw and chew at them. The time it takes the wolves to clean up the goodies offers multiple opportunities for hunters to make a kill. Reducing wolf numbers seems to be the key, but it can’t be done in all the problem areas. So there are no easy answers to this problem. Mike Foss believes hunting and human interaction are some of the keys to giving the bears a much-needed break. “Wolves are still present in the agriculture lands, but they have much more human contact and a better deer population to sustain them over the winter months— leaving the slumbering bears alone to awaken to another spring.” He adds, “The wolf knows only that eating means survival. Without the proper balance of predator and prey, we are in trouble.
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Post by brobear on Jun 11, 2021 11:04:06 GMT -5
Reply #357 - A moment later, the issue came into clear focus as a timber wolf trotted in and looked over the area. He sniffed around a little, made a half circle around the bait site, then left on the trail of that 200-pound bear. It wasn’t my first introduction to the fear that wolves put into bears, but it was a graphic one. “Not only is our deer population having a difficult time rebounding from dismal numbers caused in part by wolf predation over the past decade,” he says, “but some bear guides, including me, believe our great bear population is literally under attack, specifically cubs and younger, immature bears.” He claims that much of the predation takes place in the winter where wolves pull bears out of the dens and eat them. He cites a fellow guide who found evidence of wolf predation at three bear dens late last winter.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 11, 2021 12:37:28 GMT -5
Good find there brobear, see i told you that wolf packs dominate black bears. That report talks about Wisconsin, so those are black bears. So the interactions are dominated by wolf packs, but as to the killings are concerned, they should be subadults, females, and cubs, not the adult males.
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Post by Montezuma on Jun 12, 2021 14:52:08 GMT -5
A adult male brown bear of every subspecie will replace any wolf pack from its kill, no doubt. But i do not think that a male black bear or adult female brown bear would like to replace the wolf pack. Only adult male brown bears pose real threat to wolf packs.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 14, 2021 5:03:34 GMT -5
A adult male brown bear of every subspecie will replace any wolf pack from its kill, no doubt. But i do not think that a male black bear or adult female brown bear would like to replace the wolf pack. Only adult male brown bears pose real threat to wolf packs. The American black bear is my favourite bear after the polar bear and glacier bear. However, I doubt a black bear is able to displace a wolf pack.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 14, 2021 5:04:31 GMT -5
The only bears that can dominate wolf packs will be brown and polar bears.
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smedz
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Post by smedz on Jun 15, 2021 20:36:13 GMT -5
Why No Dholes in North America?
The exact cause of the extinction of the megafauna at the end of the last ice age is perhaps one of the greatest debates in the history of paleontology. When talking about the topic, naturally, people bring up the completely extinct animals such as mammoths and sabertooth cats, but there were some animals that lived in places you wouldn't have expected them to be. There were hyenas in Europe, and in North America there was a population of dholes (Cuon alpinus). To date, fossils have been found in the southwest and Mexico, and Alaska if I remember correctly. However, seeing as though not all fossils have been found, dholes may have lived in places like Kentucky, Pennslyvania, Florida, Minnesota, Pennslyvania, and Ohio and fossils just haven't been found yet. But why did they die off from North America? For this, let's look at the two common theories.
A Warming Climate: As the climate warmed, whole habitats changed, and the megafauna died out because they couldn't adapt to the changes. But what about dholes? The habitat requirements for dholes are lots of prey, some access to water, and forest of some kind. North America after the last ice age had thick forests, lots of water, and lots of prey such as white-tailed deer and elk. So a warming climate might not have killed them...directly anyway.
Human hunting: Another idea is that the arrival of humans caused the death of the megafauna when humans hunted them. There is no evidence humans hunted dholes in North America. But, just because no evidence has been found, doesn't mean there isn't a speartip ith dhole blood on it and it's very easy to think that these people didn't really like competitors very much.
Competition: And now, for the reason I put this here, is an idea I have. During the Late Pleistocene, the wooded areas of North America would've been one of the main habitats of dholes in North America. Gray Wolves were also present in North America at some point in the Pleistocene. From research done on tooth enamel, it's now known that dire wolves and gray wolves hunted more on the plains while Smilodon and American lions lived in the more wooded areas and thus, both cats would've coexisted with dholes. While they undoubtedly would've killed dholes to eliminate competition, they may also have somewhat protected dholes by suppressing wolf populations. In Far Eastern Russia, Amur tigers used to live with both wolves and dholes. It's well known that tigers suppress wolf populations, and while dholes are extinct in the region, there are no texts about dholes being suppressed quite as much. Tigers would've killed dholes and socially dominated them, but perhaps not as much as wolves simply because wolves would've been "worse" competitors for them. So maybe, just maybe, the ice age big cats saw wolves as worse competition and that allowed dholes to live in North America. But, with the big cats going extinct, wolves may have expanded more into the forests and overlapped with dholes more. dholes are efficient hunters, but wolves have advantages over them. Their larger size means they can take down large prey more easily. Wolves have a more powerful bite than dholes, their longer legs may have allowed them to walk through deep snow more efficiently, and then there's the diet. Dholes are big game hunting specialists, but wolves in places like Voyageurs National Park, Minnesota are generalists in that in winter they hunt deer in packs but in the spring ans summer they forage on their own to eat smaller food items like fawns and beavers. When dholes chase prey, they normally don't chase it over 500 meters since it's harder to chase something over long distances in thick forests than it is in open country, so they use teamwork and speed to kill in a short distance. Wolves, by eating smaller things in the warm season are able to get around this. In short, wolves are just better at the job nature gave them and may have outcompeted dholes in North America and Europe.
This however, is just my opinion. Do you think wolves had a part in dhole extinctions? thenormalguy
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2021 4:06:15 GMT -5
Quote: Do you think wolves had a part in dhole extinctions? My first thought is; Are there any wolves living where dholes have survived after the Ice Age?
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smedz
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Post by smedz on Jun 16, 2021 10:37:50 GMT -5
Quote: Do you think wolves had a part in dhole extinctions? My first thought is; Are there any wolves living where dholes have survived after the Ice Age? In modern times, the only place where one can find both species is India. However, they don't compete with each other.
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