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Post by tom on Jan 4, 2021 16:14:29 GMT -5
Taker, not sure if you've already compared this one or not. Ngandong Tiger vs Smilodon Populator.
Average body mass for both are probably not far off. Seems most body mass ranges given for the Tiger is 250kg - 360kg.
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Post by tom on Jan 4, 2021 16:30:19 GMT -5
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 4, 2021 17:16:23 GMT -5
tomThank you for notifying me, tom. The link to the thread you shared contains a lot of valuable information and I've read through it multiple times; the Ngandong tiger was most likely comparable in body mass with Panthera Atrox and Panthera Fossilis, maybe a hunch larger at max. weights. The biggest accurately determined weight figure for this big cat (based on a 480mm femur) is ~368kg. It might be the largest Panthera cat ever but the title of the largest felid would still belong to Smilodon Populator imo.
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Post by tom on Jan 4, 2021 17:35:56 GMT -5
From what I understand and this may or may not be factual dunno, is that there aren't a lot of remains to piece together really accurate dimensions and body mass estimates for Ngandong. Trying to piece bones together is difficult when you have bits and pieces from different individuals and not a compete fossilized remain from a single individual, that seems to be the major problem.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 4, 2021 17:42:18 GMT -5
tomYes, that's a general issue in the world of paleontology. But there is an even bigger issue: People basing the size of an animal based on a single fragment (without knowing the size of other body parts) and labeling it as the definite truth. Estimates on the size of prehistoric animals will usually get more reliable over time as new fossils get detected.
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Post by tom on Jan 4, 2021 18:01:11 GMT -5
That forum thread had some very good links on the subjects of size. From the linked thread.
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Post by tom on Jan 4, 2021 18:07:10 GMT -5
tom the Ngandong tiger was most likely comparable in body mass with Panthera Atrox and Panthera Fossilis, maybe a hunch larger at max. weights. The biggest accurately determined weight figure for this big cat (based on a 480mm femur) is ~368kg. It might be the largest Panthera cat ever but the title of the largest felid would still belong to Smilodon Populator imo. I would tend to agree with that.
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Post by brobear on Jan 10, 2021 3:53:08 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 10, 2021 6:47:51 GMT -5
The wild cat at the moment seems to be the smilodon populator. The largest cat is a captive hybrid called the liger.
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Post by tom on Jan 10, 2021 7:33:05 GMT -5
That's the million dollar question. We have very few remains of the tiger but what they do have seems to suggest a range of 250-350 kg with some freaks up to and possibly exceeding 400kg. The same with Smilodon Populator except I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are more remains from Populator that have been studied. Either species, the most accurate way to determine mass will be comparisons to modern day felids ala Bengal and Amur tigers and Modern Lions. The thing we don't know is.... are averages estimated both female and male combined or just males and can they accurately determine which of the smaller bones were from females or sub adults? Lots of unknowns.
The Mosbach Lion... you got me on that one? Never even heard of it till you mentioned it.
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Post by brobear on Jan 10, 2021 7:50:11 GMT -5
The Mosbach Lion ( Panthera fossillis ) was probably the largest relative of the lion, on par perhaps with the Ngandong tiger ( Panthera tigris soloensis ). Difference is, the Ngandong tiger was a subspecies to modern tigers while the Mosbach lion was only a distant relative of the true lion ( Panthera leo ). Of course, Panthera atrox rivaled the Mosbach lion as the biggest lion relative.
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Post by brobear on Jan 10, 2021 17:34:04 GMT -5
prehistoric-fauna.com/Amphimachairodus-giganteus Amphimachairodus giganteus Amphimachairodus is an extinct genus of large machairodonts belonging to the clade known as Eumachairodontia (true saberteeth) along with relatives like Smilodon and Homotherium. It inhabited Eurasia and Northern Africa during the late Miocene epoch. There was marked sexual dimorphism in A. giganteus, with males much larger than females. A single fossil specimen examined by Legendre and Roth was determined to have an approximate body mass of 201.8 kg. Amphiachairodus kabir was a large species from Central Africa whose size may have approached 470 kg with a range of 350-450 kg. It was about 2 metres long and probably hunted as an ambush predator - its legs were too short to sustain a long chase, so it most likely was a good jumper. It probably used its canines to cut open the throat of its prey. Its teeth were rooted to its mouth and were not too delicate, unlike most saber-toothed cats of the time, which had extremely long canines that hung out of their mouths. The fangs, however, were able to easily fit in its mouth comfortably while being long enough to be effective for hunting. This specimen was from a large male A. giganteus with the skull measuring 36 cm from the Late Miocene in China. Deformation of the skull through natural fossilization processes has changed the shape slightly, making it asymmetrical, but overall it remains an excellent specimen for studying the cranial morphology of this particular genus and species. For felines, this skull is very large, surpassing the size of most modern lions. When compared with a lion, it is long and very narrow, particularly in the muzzle and width of the zygomatic arches. Its sagittal crest is well pronounced. Compared with other machairodonts, the canines are stout and capable of large amounts of stress. This characteristic is slightly remodeled in females, whose canines are slimmer and generally longer. Compared with females, the orbit of males are smaller, muzzles larger, the anterior-most portion of the nasal bones generally flare upwards slightly, and the downward slope of the dorsal edge of the skull in front of the orbit is not as pronounced, producing a straighter profile. Compared with the most well known machairodont Smilodon, commonly referred to as the "saber-toothed cat", the canines are much shorter, the facial portion again is much longer, and the teeth not reduced so far in number. Several machairodonts, namely Megantereon, bear flanges on the mandible, which are very reduced in A. giganteus though characteristics of the mandible associated with the flanges are present, particularly the lateral flattening of the anterior portion of the mandible, creating a cross section more square than semi-circular. The dental formula for this specimen is I3/3 C1/1 P2/2 M1/1. *Note: Amphiachairodus kabir. 470 kg ( 1,036 lbs )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2021 14:43:02 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2021 10:54:43 GMT -5
Those figures are too large & are rather over - estimates. a Max. weight of around 368 kg for ngandong tiger is definitely more likely. You could still call Them lions, but they are seperate enough to not be considered 'Panthera leo'; they were closest to lions over any other pantherine but separate enough to be considered distinct. That was an actual 470 kg specimen.Read the full study,in the end there is even a weight range comparison between ngandong tiger and siberian tiger.
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Post by brobear on May 7, 2021 6:03:40 GMT -5
It appears that Smilodon populator has a brand new rival for the crown of Biggest Cat Ever - Machairodus lahayishupup.
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Post by brobear on May 7, 2021 6:05:10 GMT -5
HOW does this monster-cat stack-up against Smilodon populator?
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 7, 2021 8:13:07 GMT -5
/\ I am not too sure. The smilodon is said to have the most powerful forearms out of all cats together with the American lion.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 7, 2021 8:13:58 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 7, 2021 9:03:25 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on May 7, 2021 14:52:01 GMT -5
This "man-made" abomination is indeed big, but I'm looking for natural born species. Understood, the topic title does not specify.
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