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Post by brobear on Mar 12, 2020 2:01:23 GMT -5
The skulls from Lasiotus and horribilis have basically the same score, at least the largest ones from Boone and Crockett.
Historically, the smallest grizzly in America would be a contest between the Mexican grizzly and the barren ground grizzly. Other than the coastal brown bears, the largest grizzlies in America were those of the Great Plains ( prairie ) and those of the Sierra Nevada Mountains ( both now extinct ).
Intermediate in size between the ( extinct ) Mexican grizzly and the barren ground grizzly - and the prairie grizzly and the California grizzly ( Sierra Nevada Mountains ) - is the Rocky Mountain grizzly ( all living grizzlies in America other than the coastal giants ).
While the largest specimens of each are pretty-much equal in size, the Russian grizzly is on average roughly 100 pounds heavier than the Rocky Mountain grizzly.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 7:32:05 GMT -5
Your thoughts on this hypothetical face-off over a caribou carcass. 300-pound grizzly vs 300-pound Asiatic black bear.
 
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 7:45:28 GMT -5
Now this is a hard one brobear. Both animals are very aggressive, the barren ground a little more. They will fight. The brown bear has a little more robust front limbs, Brown Bear - 22.14%, Asiatic Black Bear - 21.75%. The barren ground grizzlies take down much larger musk-ox by ambush, the Himalayan black bear takes down much smaller prey. But this is info sake because prey items have nothing to do in a face to face fight.
In my opinion, same weight, 300 lbs each, i say the barren ground takes it 6/10 times. But i would accept a 50% also.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 7:59:25 GMT -5
I would give the grizzly an 8-out-of-10. I once posted this same face-off over on the old AVA. Big Bonns stated that the barren ground grizzly would make a quick kill. Of course, even with him its opinion.   |
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Post by tom on Mar 26, 2020 9:01:19 GMT -5
I'm going with 6 out 10 times in favor of the Barren ground Grizzly as well. What Big Bonns said could likely be true. I kind liken the Barron Ground Grizzly as a Grizzly with a bad attitude and a short fuse. He's very aggressive and that makes him intimidating to what ever he's up against. Just ask Mr. Polar Bear....  |
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 10:05:10 GMT -5
Ok great. I see us 3 agree that the Barren ground would win more often than not. Thats the main point.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 10:07:58 GMT -5
Ok great. I see us 3 agree that the Barren ground would win more often than not. Thats the main point. |
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 26, 2020 11:25:40 GMT -5
I would support the barren ground grizzly in at least 65 out of 100 fights; higher bite force, more durable, more robust and the gigantic hump of muscles ofc. Although the Asian black bear might be a very good contender against a brown bear at parity I do think that ursus arctos' slightly superior morphology would be the decider. Another noteworthy point is that barren ground grizzlies regularly contest polar bears at whale carcasses; that should speak for their aggressiveness/confidence towards larger foes and is in my eyes more impressive than contesting tigers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 11:35:16 GMT -5
Grizzly wins every time.
The main distinction between the two is their diet. Generally speaking, black bears aren’t hunters. That’s very important. They have a largely herbivorous diet, and occasionally eat small mammals.
Then you have grizzlies, which are also omnivorous, but their diet will tone up to larger animals like large fish and much larger mammals like elk and deer and occasionally moose.
You all probably already know this, but what I’m trying to say is the reason the grizzly would win is because they are equipped to do so. It would out grapple the black bear, and even with equal weights superior weaponry is key.
I don’t know about Asiatic bears specifically, but black bears have a max claw length of 2 inches, and grizzlies around 4 inches.
It wouldn’t be an easy fight for the grizzly for sure, but regardless there’s no real advantage the black bear has and therefore the grizzly wins.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 26, 2020 11:45:38 GMT -5
Himalayan black bears are known to prey on livestock including adult cattle, their abilities to bring down large prey shouldn't be underestimated, it will eventually be a close fight between the two. My 65/35 take is based on the fact that I take individuality into account, if you take the best of the best and repeat it ~100 times, the grizzly would win nearly every time, that's clear.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 11:56:02 GMT -5
Himalayan black bears are known to prey on livestock including adult cattle, their abilities to bring down large prey shouldn't be underestimated, it will eventually be a close fight between the two. My 65/35 take is based on the fact that I take individuality into account, if you take the best of the best and repeat it ~100 times, the grizzly would win nearly every time, that's clear. My bad, I read the title wrong, I didn’t realise the fight was specifically Himalayan black bears. I still favour the grizzly at a high percentage though, hunting faster and more dangerous prey will come in useful. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 12:08:22 GMT -5
Remember that an animal's diet is basically a non factor in a face to face fight. Tigers hunt medium sized elephants and large gaurs, yet they cant defeat a small female sloth bear in a face to face battle.
I think you guys can clearly see me having a soft spot for the Himalayan black bear, lol.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 12:23:04 GMT -5
Remember that an animal's diet is basically a non factor in a face to face fight. Tigers hunt medium sized elephants and large gaurs, yet they cant defeat a small female sloth bear in a face to face battle.
I think you guys can clearly see me having a soft spot for the Himalayan black bear, lol. In the case with bears; not completely a non-factor. A bear wrestles and basically overpowers his prey. 300-pound barren ground grizzlies have been known to kill 900-pound musk ox. That is an impressive kill. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 12:25:19 GMT -5
Remember that an animal's diet is basically a non factor in a face to face fight. Tigers hunt medium sized elephants and large gaurs, yet they cant defeat a small female sloth bear in a face to face battle. Good point, however there have been multiple accounts of tigers killing sloth bears. I don’t recall the opposite happening. Tigers won’t regularly attempt to prey on sloth bears, because they are equipped to fight tigers, and therefore will give up when it is apparent they will risk major injury trying to kill something that is too tough. But in a bloodlusted fight a male tiger would absolutely beat a male sloth bear. Likewise, in a fight to the death, being a naturally more powerful predator will prevail. We’re talking about bears that have been known to kill bison. Not barren grizzlies specifically, but you know what I mean. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 12:28:31 GMT -5
Remember that an animal's diet is basically a non factor in a face to face fight. Tigers hunt medium sized elephants and large gaurs, yet they cant defeat a small female sloth bear in a face to face battle.
I think you guys can clearly see me having a soft spot for the Himalayan black bear, lol. In the case with bears; not completely a non-factor. A bear wrestles and basically overpowers his prey. 300-pound barren ground grizzlies have been known to kill 900-pound musk ox. That is an impressive kill. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 12:35:33 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 13:06:00 GMT -5
My point was that if they happened to fight to the death head on, the tiger would win. That’s because by nature they are full carnivores unlike the sloth bear, and are therefore equipped with the weaponry to match, and familiarised with similar tasks very often. So with the grizzly vs black bear, the “more carnivorous” bear, or the one that deals with more dangerous prey, would have an advantage. |
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 13:13:07 GMT -5
grrraaahhh - shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/18/barren-ground-girzzly-predation-muskox The carcass of an adult muskox bull (Ovibos moschatus) killed by a barren-ground grizzly bear (Ursus arctos richardsoni) was found in the Thelon Game Sanctuary. It is suggested that adult muskox bulls along the Thelon River system have become prey for at least some grizzly bears that have learned to ambush them in dense vegetation. warsaw - "...Predation on muskoxen poses risks for griz-zly bears because muskoxen defend themselves against predators by running together and wheeling to face an approaching bear or wolf (Canis lupus) with a wall of horns .Adult muskoxen also dart out of a defensive groupto attack an approaching predator. Horns can be lethalweapons against bears. One radiocollared male grizzly bear (No. 031, age 11) had serious puncture wounds from a muskox when it was captured in June 1995, but it survived the injuries. Another marked male bear (No. 056, age 5) died several weeks after receiving wounds from an adult male muskox during an attack in June 2000..." "In the study area, brown bears (Ursus arctos) kill more muskoxen than wolves." grrraaahhh - "In the study area, brown bears (Ursus arctos) kill more muskoxen than wolves." The Barren Ground Grizzly Bear is simply one Bad @ss brownie! Of all brown bear populations, this brown bear is very likely the most predatory brownie . |
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 26, 2020 13:30:07 GMT -5
It's actually pretty ironic that one of the smallest populations is actually the most aggressive and predatory while the largest brown bears inhabiting the coastal regions of Alaska live a happy and isolated life eating their tasty salmon all day long.
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Post by brobear on Mar 26, 2020 13:45:24 GMT -5
It's actually pretty ironic that one of the smallest populations is actually the most aggressive and predatory while the largest brown bears inhabiting the coastal regions of Alaska live a happy and isolated life eating their tasty salmon all day long. The barren ground grizzlies live in near-total isolation on the arctic tundra; home of caribou herds, musk ox, and arctic wolves. They were much less a part of the massive predator killings of the mid-to-late 1800's and early 1900's. Lewis and Clark probably met grizzlies further south equally as aggressive as the barren ground bears. |
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