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Post by tom on Mar 7, 2021 16:36:33 GMT -5
I didn't see this face-off listed anywhere so lets get some thoughts on this one as I'm sure you could find some pros and cons for each I'm guessing. Dig deep lets hear the details....
For this match-up we'll use a 17 foot female Great White (females grow bigger than males) and a 17 foot male Salt Water Crocodile. I've added a video that may or may not be of some help on this match-up.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Mar 7, 2021 23:56:37 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Mar 7, 2021 23:57:56 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Mar 8, 2021 4:16:10 GMT -5
Over on "Carnivora" Black Ice posted an interesting report on Great White Shark confrontations with Saltwater Crocodiles. Interestingly, in nearly every encounter, the crocodile defeats the shark but neither great predator is killed. In 90% of encounters, the crocodile wins. In deep water, a grizzly would stand zero chance against either opponent. But, could a big boar grizzly kill a huge crocodile on dry land? One year ago...
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Post by brobear on Mar 8, 2021 4:27:14 GMT -5
*Perhaps someone could go to 'that place' and locate 'Great White Shark vs Saltwater Crocodile' and copy-and-paste this report from Black Ice.
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Post by tom on Mar 8, 2021 10:15:07 GMT -5
I agree pretty much with what the video had to say.
Pros for the Croc:
Superior bite force Thicker hide Used to prey as large or larger then themselves
While a 17 ft. Croc would not be able to put his jaws completely around a 17ft. long Shark he could manage to inflict massive damage with that jaw pressure that those injuries would eventually prove to be fatal to the Shark. The Shark on the other hand could as well take a good bite but I think the protective outer armor of the Croc would tend to protect him much better. The only wrench you could throw in for the Shark is if he could get a bite from underneath on the Crocs softer underbelly, in that case it could as well be fatal to the Croc.
I give the Croc a 7/10 advantage in this face-off
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Post by brobear on Mar 8, 2021 10:31:49 GMT -5
I consider them equally-well armored. I had a neighbor in Savannah who tried to cut the jaws out of a bull shark. After repeatedly going back inside his house to sharpen his butcher knife, he finally gave up and allowed the fire ants to strip the meat from the bones. A shark's skin is protected by scales which are like millions of tiny teeth. In fact, a shark's teeth are large scales. ( IMO ) the crocodile's greatest advantage is his serpentine agility. That plus his determination to guard his domain. *I will add; the crocodile has sensory ( somethings ) in each plate ( scale ) which lets him know when there is anything large in the water near him. He cannot be ambushed from beneath - at least not easily.
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Post by tom on Mar 8, 2021 13:52:20 GMT -5
That's interesting brobear. Here's one scenario that I'm curious about that may play to the sharks favor. We've all seen how Great Whites attack seals at the surface. The Shark patrols from the depths and sees a silhouette swimming at the surface, I wonder what would happen if the Shark attacked much like they do on seals. They launch themselves straight up from the depths at full speed and hitting their prey with such force that they breach the water completely. The Croc may not be able to react in time before it's too late ?? dunno.
This IMO would be the only chance I would give the Shark a sure victory. If the Croc senses or sees him coming the element of surprise is lost and then it's game on for the Croc. I think of a Croc nearly the size of Lolong and that is a lot of reptilian for any shark to deal with.
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Post by tom on Mar 8, 2021 14:01:17 GMT -5
Reply #2
Tiger Sharks are one of few (if not the only one) that can bite thru the shell of turtles.
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Post by tom on Mar 8, 2021 14:07:29 GMT -5
Not a Great White but a Saltie snacking on a bull shark which is no slouch in itself.
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Post by tom on Mar 8, 2021 14:09:30 GMT -5
This is Brutus. Any Great White that encounters a Croc this size is in for the fight of his life,
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Post by tom on Mar 8, 2021 14:15:56 GMT -5
Over on "Carnivora" Black Ice posted an interesting report on Great White Shark confrontations with Saltwater Crocodiles. Interestingly, in nearly every encounter, the crocodile defeats the shark but neither great predator is killed. In 90% of encounters, the crocodile wins. In deep water, a grizzly would stand zero chance against either opponent. But, could a big boar grizzly kill a huge crocodile on dry land? One year ago... Could this be what you're referring to> Black Ice reported these accounts.
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Post by tom on Mar 8, 2021 14:20:12 GMT -5
Then later in the thread he goes on to write:
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Post by brobear on Mar 8, 2021 16:08:30 GMT -5
That's interesting brobear. Here's one scenario that I'm curious about that may play to the sharks favor. We've all seen how Great Whites attack seals at the surface. The Shark patrols from the depths and sees a silhouette swimming at the surface, I wonder what would happen if the Shark attacked much like they do on seals. They launch themselves straight up from the depths at full speed and hitting their prey with such force that they breach the water completely. The Croc may not be able to react in time before it's too late ?? dunno. This IMO would be the only chance I would give the Shark a sure victory. If the Croc senses or sees him coming the element of surprise is lost and then it's game on for the Croc. I think of a Croc nearly the size of Lolong and that is a lot of reptilian for any shark to deal with. The crocodile would not likely be taken by surprise. The croc would likely detect a body the size of a great white moving through the water immediately and dive down to meet the threat ( IMO ). *Good find on Black Ice's report. *Edit and add: In my opinion; the tiger shark is more dangerous than a great white. It might be more likely to give a fight to a crocodile. But, of course, this is mere speculation.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 9, 2021 4:16:42 GMT -5
Best vs best I would definitely go with the great white here; at maximum sizes it outweighs the crocodile by roughly 2:1 which should be enough to secure the win imo.
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Post by brobear on Mar 9, 2021 5:00:10 GMT -5
Best vs best I would definitely go with the great white here; at maximum sizes it outweighs the crocodile by roughly 2:1 which should be enough to secure the win imo. Considering existing reports, when similar sized crocodile and shark meet, there is no killing. Probably very little physical contact. Even though the shark is heavier; still similar in overall length. Evidently, the way I'm reading this, the crocodile is being territorial while the shark has no real reason to fight. However; in going with a face-off ( under some unknown reasons ) size matters, but its not everything. I believe that the crocodile's maneuverability coupled with his superior intelligence would give him at least a 50/50 chance of a victory. Edit and add: the depth of the ocean might give some advantage to the shark.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 9, 2021 8:07:53 GMT -5
brobearI agree with you on the psychological part; a great white shark won't stroll around trying to force the crocodile out of his territory. Either he will ignore it or consider it a prey item and eventually initiate an ambush from below (similar to what they do to seals). So a forced fight would actually be an unrealistic scenario in this case; it completely differs from the mammalian standards we usually discuss where both participants are circling each other. But I have to say, if the great white shark somehow decided to kill the crocodile; I would heavily favour it. Their attacks are occasionally very hard to dodge for agile/flimsy seals and I doubt the two combatants would actually think in such an advanced way that they try to dodge each others attack; they would rather follow each other's instincts and go "all in" in my opinion. That's where the sharks huge size advantage would come into play, it's the much more physical opponent and visibly stronger. I don't think that maneuverability/intelligence are enough to counter a 1:2 weight disadvantage; those are the same advantages a modern grey wolf theoretically holds over a cave hyena but I think that won't really be a difference maker if the two squared off. A very large American black bear would theoretically be more intelligent/have greater maneuverability than a cave bear with a 1:2 size disadvantage. We all know who would win in a brawl and I personally can't see why it would be much different here.
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Post by brobear on Mar 9, 2021 8:22:03 GMT -5
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130702101506.htm Croc supersense: Multi-sensory organs in crocodylian skin sensitive to touch, heat, cold, environment. The crocodile would not easily be ambushed; even from below. I did read once ( might have been Life Magazine ) that Nile crocodiles keep down the bull shark population ( called "Zambezi shark" in Africa ). The article also stated that in the waters of S.E. America, alligators do the same. But, in these circumstances, the reptile might be preying on smaller sharks - IDK. Reply #3: Great White Shark - 1900 kg = 4,188.78 pounds Saltwater Crocodile - 1360 kg = 2,998.29 pounds So, the shark has a weight advantage of roughly 1,190 pounds ( huge advantage ). If he can hit the crocodile before the crocodile can grab him, yes the shark will win. He hits like a torpedo and takes out a huge chunk of meat. If the croc grabs the shark first, he will then have to go into his death-roll to tear flesh. His teeth are not designed for slicing flesh. If the crocodile grabs the shark at the base of the tail, then the fight is over. The crocodile has enough bite fore to sever the shark's tail. But - is a crocodile smart enough to figure this out?
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Post by tom on Mar 9, 2021 9:10:38 GMT -5
This is the account that still has me still favoring a Croc at maximum sizes. The question may be did it actually happen this way?
A 550 cm (18 ft. GW) lost a fierce battle to a 600cm (19 ft.) Crocodile. Crocodile bit off a sharks head??
That bite force on the Croc is hard to ignore. The estimated bite force on a crocodile is twice that of a Great White. If the Croc gets ahold of the Shark and does the classic death roll then huge gaping wounds IMO would prove fatal to the Shark. There are multiple scenarios that you could possibly build a case for each but I'll stick with the Croc for now.
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Post by tom on Mar 9, 2021 10:07:46 GMT -5
Discovery channel did a special on Shark week back in 2017 entitled Shark vs Croc showdown, but I'm only able to find trailers not the full episode.
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