Panthera atrox vs Smilodon populator

[brobear]

Many of the Pantherines and "small cats" survived the last Ice Age while all of the saber-toothed cats perished. Why? 

[theundertaker45]

My theory is that sabre-toothed cats couldn't cope with the upcoming global warming as exclusive "big game-specialists"; pantherines were better adapted at catching the more agile and maneuverable prey whereas sabre-toothed cats like Smilodon couldn't properly adapt themselves. These may be the same problems our modern polar bears are going to face in the upcoming decades, not having enough time to adapt different dieting patterns...

[OldGreenGrolar]

Maybe they were more adaptable? Leopards for example are more adaptable than tigers, lions, and cheetahs. They are surprisingly the most numerous predator in Africa and India even though they are the most elusive and not the strongest.

Sabre toothed cats are more powerful than pantherines and felines but less adaptable to climate and ecosystem change probably.

[brobear]

May 10, 2020 5:53:04 GMT -5 OldGreenGrolar said:

Maybe they were more adaptable? Leopards for example are more adaptable than tigers, lions, and cheetahs. They are surprisingly the most numerous predator in Africa and India even though they are the most elusive and not the strongest.

Sabre toothed cats are more powerful than pantherines and felines but less adaptable to climate and ecosystem change probably.

Yes, leopards are incredible. The only cat of its size-range that ( IMHO ) can compete with the leopard in adaptabilty would be the cougar. 

[OldGreenGrolar]

Sabre toothed cats kill using their neck muscles despite having a weaker bite than the pantherines and felines.

[brobear]

This is ( IMO ) the greatest big cat face-off possible. Of all the big cats of all time; who would you crown as "King of the Cats"?   
 
American Lion - Panthera leo atrox

The American lion (Panthera leo atrox or P. atrox) — also known as the North American lion, Naegele’s giant jaguar or American cave lion — is an extinct lion of the family Felidae, endemic to North America during the Pleistocene epoch (0.34 mya to 11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 0.33 million years. It has been shown by genetic analysis to be a sister lineage to the Eurasian cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea or P. spelaea). The American lion is an extinct animal which originated in North America and went on to colonize part of South America as part of the Great American Interchange. The head-body length of the American lion is estimated to have been 1.6–2.5 m (5 ft 3 in–8 ft 2 in) and it would have stood 1.2 metres (4 ft) at the shoulder. Thus it was smaller than its contemporary competitor for prey, the giant short-faced bear, which was the largest carnivoran of North America at the time. The American lion was not as heavily built as the saber-toothed cat Smilodon populator, which may have weighed up to 360–470 kilograms (790–1,000 lb). Sorkin (2008) estimated it to weigh roughly 420 kilograms (930 lb), but new estimations show a top weight of 351 kg (774lbs.) for the largest specimen and an average weight for males of 255.65 kg (563lbs.). 
 
Smilodon populator

Smilodon, often called a saber-toothed cat or wrongly a saber-toothed tiger, is an extinct genus of machairodonts. This saber-toothed cat was endemic to North America and South America, living from near the beginning through the very end of the Pleistocene epoch (2.5 mya—10,000 years ago). Smilodon populator ("Smilodon the Devastator"), 1 million-10,000 years ago; occurred in the eastern parts of South America and was the largest species of all machairodonts. It was much larger than its cousins, S. fatalis and S. gracilis, possessing a massive chest and front legs, and is the largest known variety of saber-toothed cat. It was more than 1.40 m (55 in) high at the shoulder, 2.6 m (100 in) long on average and had a 30 cm (12 in) tail. Smilodon populator was substantially heavier and larger than any extant felid, with a body mass range of 220–360 kg. Particularly large specimens of S. populator almost certainly exceeded 400 kg in body mass. Its upper canines reached 30 cm (12 in) and protruded up to 17 cm (6.7 in) out of the upper jaw. Genetic evidence suggests that Smilodon populator and other members of the genus diverged from the main lineage of modern cats (subfamily Felinae) around 14-18 million years ago.

[OldGreenGrolar]

Both extinct cats have more robust forelimbs than their extant counterparts. The smilodon probably a bit more so. The American lion, however, has much stronger jaws and can grapple prey the way a tiger and lion does. Smilodon wins by ambush.

American lion will have a better chance to win in a face to face fight.

[OldGreenGrolar]

Long canines while good for stabbing can be a bigger target during a fight.

[King Kodiak]

Ok so, the average weight of Smilodon populator was around 290 kg (639 lbs), the average weight of Panthera atrox was around 255.65 kg (563 lbs). The populator had a weight advantage of around 76 lbs. Decent weight advantage although not decisive.

So at least at averages, the Populator had more robust limbs. Atrox had very robust Humeri, close to brown bears, but so did the Populator.

Atrox had more robust canines: (Populator had it longer but i believe more robust is a much better trait for a head on fight).


Canine ML Diameter (basically measures the robusticity of the canines using a length/width - ratio)

(Panthera Atrox - 21.28)
(Smilodon Fatalis - 18.80) (not populator but it should still be less robust than Atrox in the canines)

The populator had more shoulder height.

So, for now, at average weights, i would favor the Populator 6/7 out of 10 fights.

[brobear]

Six out of 10 sounds about right ( IMO ). Two other advantages of atrox, he was likely more intelligent and is said to have the strongest jaws of any cat ever. But, we could be wrong considering the saber-tooth's weight and strength advantage. But it might be that neither of these advantages is enough to make it a game-changer.

[smedz]

I'd go with the sabertooth here 6/10 as well in a straight-up deathmatch. In a grappling contest, the sabertooth had to be a more skillful grappler since it couldn't use the huge teeth to wrestle prey down.

[OldGreenGrolar]

The smilodon seems to have more powerful forelimbs to make up for its relatively weak crushing bite.

[brobear]

It still seems odd to me that all of the sabertooth cat species perished at the close of the Pleistocene. With the modern bison surviving the end of the Ice Age, it seems like either Smilodon fatalis or gracilis could have made it.

[OldGreenGrolar]

Oct 12, 2020 14:27:32 GMT -5 smedz said:

I'd go with the sabertooth here 6/10 as well in a straight-up deathmatch. In a grappling contest, the sabertooth had to be a more skillful grappler since it couldn't use the huge teeth to wrestle prey down.

Good point. The smilodon populator is said to be the better grappler.

Unlike the p.atox, it can't use its jaws to fight upclose.

[arctozilla]

Smilodon Populator is the largest cat now. 500 kg American lion was an overstimation, no cat will reach 500 kg, unless they are obese.

[OldGreenGrolar]

Apr 18, 2023 13:18:45 GMT -5 arctozilla said:

Smilodon Populator is the largest cat now. 500 kg American lion was an overstimation, no cat will reach 500 kg, unless they are obese.

Including a 1100 pound Ngadong tiger? Extinct cats tend to be heavier and can sustain more weight than their extant counterparts in my opinion. Therefore 900 pounds to 1100 might not be false. However, brown bears and polar bears can sustain more weight than these big cats.

[arctozilla]

Well I believe that 900 lbs is the weight limit of the felidae family. No cat that ever lived will reach 1,000 lbs without being overweight.