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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 26, 2020 7:37:12 GMT -5
Fair enough and good point. In any case, both animals, the Himalayan black bear and the Bengal tiger avoid each other. Because as i already stated, there is not one account of a Bengal tiger killing an adult male Himalayan black bear. But we do have accounts of this bear displacing bengal tigers, including a large male bengal tiger witnessed by Jim Corbett.
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Post by brobear on Apr 22, 2020 6:48:14 GMT -5
www.girnationalpark.in/ Animals :The entire forest area of the Gir National Park is dry and deciduous which provides best habitat for Asiatic Lions. As per the new statics of 2015, the entire Saurashtra Region is inhabited by 523 Lions and more than 300 Leopards. Apart from these two animals the park is a home to two different species of Deer. The Sambar is counted largest Indian Deer. The Gir forest is also known for the Chowsingha – the world’s only four horned antelope. The Jackal, striped Hyena and India Fox are some of the smaller carnivores found in Gir Forest. *I just have to wonder if, with the Asiatic lion being so rare, why are they only found in Gir National Park? Asia is a big place. Surely there are locations in other areas of Asia where these big cats might be relocated. Just a random thought: might it be that the officials are worried that lions relocated where there are either tigers, black bears, or brown bears might be killed? When a predator is as rare as this particular lion subspecies, the loss of just one individual is a huge loss.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 22, 2020 18:36:53 GMT -5
I dont think so. Maybe those Indian officials want to protect their national animal, the great "royal" bengal tiger from the lion prides which surely would seek out and kill the tigers. There are like 4 wild accounts, the lion won 2 times and there were 2 ties.
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Post by brobear on Apr 23, 2020 0:53:12 GMT -5
If Asiatic lions ever are relocated to other locations within India or other locations of Asia or Europe, in reality, such confrontation would probably be quite rare. While the tigers prefer wooded terrain, the lions prefer a more open terrain. In either Europe or Asia, the lions would rarely come in contact with bears. Perhaps the problem is purely political?
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Post by brobear on Apr 25, 2020 9:05:51 GMT -5
Grizzly / Bruin / Brown bear: Ursus arctos vs Lion: Panthera leo ( not prehistoric distant relatives ). Lions and bears do not share an environment anywhere on earth today; but they did historically. Therefore all fight scenarios are purely speculation based on scientific knowledge of these two adversaries. Using the sub-species of lion of any particular location and the subspecies of brown bear in that same location as well. All fight scenarios taking place in the wild. Lion and Bruin Distribution:
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Post by brobear on Apr 25, 2020 9:13:04 GMT -5
I am seeing Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Morocco, and Algeria. Possibly Spain, France, and Italy. Your views?
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Post by brobear on Apr 26, 2020 1:47:30 GMT -5
blog.nationalgeographic.org/2014/11/01/mountain-lions-versus-black-bears/ Quote: Typically mountain lions hear the approach of the bear, and don’t even stick around to spit and hiss. They just leave. Perhaps the risks of injury in a fight outweigh the loss of a meal. *Same scenario as with sloth bear and leopard / black grizzly and tiger. It would be no different with a grizzly and a lion. However, in the unlikely event of a lone lion standing his ground against a grizzly; the lion would be mauled. Here is an example of a grizzly mauling, one grizzly on another: The Grizzly Almanac by Robert H. Busch. Males will also fight with other males over females, and many old male grizzlies have deep scars on their muzzles from such encounters. When challenging another male, grizzlies often use what has been termed a "cowboy walk," in which they walk on stiff bowlegs toward each other with lowered head and angry intentions. The posing often deters a fight before it begins, but when an actual tussle occurs, serious injuries can occur. Occasionally, the fights are fatal. The autopsy of one such unfortunate bear, who obviously lost in his fight, revealed 89 puncture wounds, a wide hole in the chest, broken ribs, a broken shoulder, a broken nose, a dislocated neck, and a broken skull. Those males who survive such battles pass on their genes to the next generation.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 26, 2020 9:26:56 GMT -5
Brobear, i dont know what else to say in this thread that i have not already said before. Lion vs grizzly in the wild, i firmly believe a lion is much more bolder and aggressive than all the other felidae species, so i think a single lion would defend its kill from a bear. Lions are in prides and can afford to get hurt, but even single lions will have that pride mentality and fight. Honestly, i dont see a lion abandoning his food that easily.
As for a fight is concerned, at same weight, say at about 400 lbs, most brown bears will be either subadults or females, (at least the largest brown bear subspecies), so my opinion is the lion takes it 6/7 out of 10 times. If a brown bear has a 200 + weight advantage, i already see it winning 7/8 out of 10 times.
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Post by brobear on Apr 26, 2020 9:46:32 GMT -5
Well, to start with, when a lion or tiger enthusiast starts yelling for a weight-parity face-off; that's a cop-out. They want a smaller bear - smaller than their big cat. They fear the fair contest of equal body-length which clearly shows which predator has the greater girth - thus greater weight and strength. But be that as it is; in the actual locations where lions ( P. leo ) lived among bears, they were either Atlas bears or Syrian brown bears. Maybe in some uncertain locations the lion may have faced the European brown bear ( Ursus arctos arctos ). The Syrian brown bear weighs up to 550 pounds and measures anywhere from 40 to 55 inches from nose to tail. It is among the smallest bear of the Ursus arctos species.
Note: This is one of several subspecies of brown bear to claim being the smallest. Consider though with a head-and-body length of less than six feet, a brown bear weighs 550 pounds ( 250 kg ). Most lions and tigers measuring over seven feet in head-and-body length weigh less. Wojtek stood six feet tall and weighed 500 pounds. But this would pretty-much add up to being a weight-parity face-off... considering average weights. Weight-parity of course meaning the bear is smaller than the lion.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 26, 2020 10:04:42 GMT -5
Well yeah, technically speaking, if the fight was regulated, like a sanctioned human MMA match, a lion fighting with a bear with a weight advantage would not be fair, fair matches should be at same weight, but then again these are animals, not humans, and in the wild basically nothing is fair. This is why lion fans want matches at weght parity. Huge brown bears is just a knock out.
Brobear, before you say it, i know that body-length parity is the best way to compare them morphology speaking, but as it pertains to a more fair face to face fight, weight parity is it because weight is a more deciding factor than length or tallness in a fight. In MMA or boxing they have much taller fighters in the same weight classes. For me, weight is 50% of the fight, then comes the other factors.
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Post by brobear on Apr 27, 2020 2:45:36 GMT -5
Copy and paste from: Tiger vs Grizzly in the Wild As for the Amur tiger being smaller in size because of such factors as over hunting of both the tiger and of the tigers prey choices, this brings up another topic. I will mention it here as we are on the subject. The Atlas bear of N. Africa. - No bear size / weight estimates were ever given until these African bears were already on the sharp edge of extinction. This is why, when on the topic of Barbary lions and the Atlas bear, I always claim that noone knows the true size of the Atlas bear. 'Nuff said. *We cannot have a reasonable debate on Barbary lions and African bears without accurate data. We are left unsure about lions in Europe. But we do know that the Asiatic lion once roamed about in the domain of the Syrian brown bear of the middle east.
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Post by brobear on Apr 27, 2020 3:00:37 GMT -5
www.bearsoftheworld.net/syrian_brown_bear.asp HABITAT The Syrian brown bear sleeps and hibernates in caves and hollow trees found in mountainous areas. Historically, the Syrian brown bear could be found in Turkey, Egypt, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, northwestern Pakistan, and parts of the former Soviet Union. CHARACTERISTICS The Syrian brown bear weighs up to 550 pounds and measures anywhere from 40 to 55 inches from nose to tail. *( average perhaps 375 pounds )? www.zsl.org/asiatic-lion-facts Asiatic lions once inhabited Persia (Iran), Palestine (a region between Syria, Egypt and Arabia), Mesopotamia (Iraq, Syria and Turkey), Balochistan (southwestern Pakistan, southeastern Iran and southwestern Afghanistan) and India. 160 kg = 353 pounds / 190 kg = 419 pounds.
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Post by brobear on Apr 27, 2020 13:17:38 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/topic-comparative-analysis-of-african-and-asiatic-lions ( by Sanjay ). There is only one species of lion called Panthera Leo. The Asiatic lion is just one of many subspecies, all of which have been geographically isolated from one another for thousands of years. Though they all possess slightly different physical and even behavioral traits, they are still capable of interbreeding and producing viable offspring. The following is a list of all the known lion subspecies, both living and extinct. 1. Asiatic Lion (P.l. persica) (Gir Forest Sanctuary in Northwest India) 2. Angola Lion (P.l. bleyenberghi) (Zimbabwe, Angola and Zaire) 3. Senegalese Lion (P.l. senegalensis) (Western Africa) 4. Barbary or Atlas Lion (P.l. leo) (North Africa; extinct in 1920 but may exist in captivity) 5. Cape Lion (P.l. melanochaitus) (South Africa's Cape Province; extinct in 1850 but may exist in captivity) 6. Masai Lion (P.l. massaicus) (Eastern Africa, notably Kenya and Tanzania) 7. Transvaal or South African Lion (P.l. kruegri) (Botswana, Nambia and South Africa) Asiatic and African lions separated as recently as 100,000 years ago, and are thus very close in genetic make-up. In fact, the differences between the two are less than those found between different human racial groups. However, the differences are significant enough that one can tell the difference between an Asiatic and an African lion if they know what to look for. SIZE Asiatic lions are smaller than their African lions. Adult males typically weigh between 350 and 420 pounds, while adult females weigh between 240 and 365 pounds. The largest Asiatic lion on record measured 9½ feet from the tip of its nose to the tip of its tail. African lions are larger than Asiatic lions. Adult males average between 330 and 500 pounds in weight, with most weighing around 410 pounds. The largest African lion on record weighed over 800 pounds. Females typically weigh the same as their Asiatic cousins. The longest African lion measured almost 11 feet from nose to tail tip. MANE Compared to the African lion, the male Asiatic lion has a relatively short, sparse mane. As a result, the male Asiatic lion's ears tend to remain visible at all times. In addition to being less well-developed, the mane is generally darker than that of African lions. Male African lions tend to have longer and fuller manes than their Asiatic cousins. A lion's mane is a signal of male condition. It allows other lions to assess the male's overall strength and fitness. A male with a long, dark mane is more intimidating to his rivals and more attractive to the opposite sex. TUFTS Asiatic lions have thicker elbow tufts and a longer tail tuft than African lions. The tail tuft covers a short spine, the function of which is unknown. African lions have relatively sparse elbow tufts and a shorter tail tuft than Asiatic lions. SKIN FOLD Other than the male's sparse mane, the most distinguishing characteristic of the Asiatic lion is a longitudinal fold of skin that runs along the belly. This trait is found in all Asiatic lions. Almost all African lions lack the longitudinal fold of skin that runs along the belly of Asiatic lions. SKULL If you're ever tasked with finding out whether a lion is Asiatic or African based on its skull alone, here's a tip. Around 50 percent of Asiatic lions have what are called bifurcated infraorbital foramina. These are small holes in the skull that allow nerves and blood vessels to pass to the eye. If a lion's skull has two of these, it's an Asiatic lion. For whatever reason, African lions only have one infraorbital foramen. Their eyesight is just as strong as the Asiatic lion's, so there's no particular benefit to having two infraorbital foramina versus just one. PRIDE SIZE Lions are highly sociable and live in social units called prides. Asiatic prides tend to be smaller than their African counterparts. The largest recorded Asiatic pride included five adult females, but most just have two adult females. This may be because the animals they prey on are relatively small, or because their range in the Gir Forest is so confined. (It should be noted that further field studies may show that what were thought to be small prides are actually just small foraging groups from larger prides). In Africa, these prides include an average of four to six females, their cubs and one to four male lions. The faster, more agile females do the hunting while the larger male lions patrol and defend the pride's territory. The females in a pride usually give birth at the same time and raise their cubs together in a crèche, or nursery. MALE SOCIABILITY Male Asiatic lions do not live in prides. In fact, they tend to only associate with female lions when mating or at large kills. Otherwise, they live alone or in partnership with another male lion. These partnerships allow male Asiatic lions to control larger territories and more easily scare off rival males. In Africa, every lion pride has a resident male or group of males, which defend their prides vigorously against other males. Pride takeovers occur every two years, during which the suckling cubs of the defeated males are killed. This ensures that the new male will pass along his genes. PREY SIZE The prey animals in the Gir Forest are generally smaller than those in Africa, so hunting groups tend to be smaller as well. This likely explains why pride size is so small. The most commonly taken prey species in the Gir Forest is the chital deer, which weighs only around 110 pounds. These account for around 45 percent of known kills. The prey animals of the African savanna tend to be larger than those in the Gir Forest of Northwest India. African lions will frequently tackle prey weighing as much as 600 to 800 pounds, such as wildebeest and zebra, and will occasionally take down African buffalo, which weigh between 1,000 and 2,000 pounds. This requires cooperative hunting techniques, which may explain why African lions live in larger prides.
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Post by brobear on Apr 27, 2020 13:21:35 GMT -5
Posts #8, #9, and #10: good stuff. As chance will have it; this turns out to be ( for the most part ) a weight-parity face-off. A 400 pound Syrian brown bear boar catches the scent of a freshly killed deer. He is both hungry and curious. He follows his nose. The 400 pound Asiatic lion has made an easy kill which required very little spent energy. He has ripped into the carcass and has started feeding. He is a very hungry lion. But after only three or four bites, Leo sees trouble coming. It is his old nemesis, Bruin. The bear is hungry and determined to have this carcass which has filled his nose with the sweet aroma of venison. The lion is determined not to give up this meat. He is hungry and has been without too long to face another long period of hunting with more misses that hits. There is going to be a fight...
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 27, 2020 13:51:15 GMT -5
A good fight would be at about 400 lbs. Its well known that the Asiatic lion has a less developed mane than the African one, this means less protection in my opinion. In a head on fight, same weight, it can go either way honestly, 50% in my opinion.
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Post by brobear on Apr 27, 2020 13:53:22 GMT -5
A good fight would be at about 400 lbs. Its well known that the Asiatic lion has a less developed mane than the African one, this means less protection in my opinion. In a head on fight, same weight, it can go either way honestly, 50% in my opinion. How dare you steal my opinion!
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 27, 2020 13:57:38 GMT -5
Am so glad we agree brobear, we are agreeing much more lately, lol.
The reason i give this a 50% is because unlike the larger brown bear subspecies, a 400 lb Syrian brown bear is an adult.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 27, 2020 19:11:14 GMT -5
Like most of us agree in this thread, its a mismatch in favour of the lion honestly. Well the poll is lion-4, bear-0. I love the sloth bear, but in a fight to the death, it would lose most times.
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Post by brobear on Apr 28, 2020 3:01:20 GMT -5
Quote: Like most of us agree in this thread, its a mismatch in favour of the lion honestly. Well the poll is lion-4, bear-0. I love the sloth bear, but in a fight to the death, it would lose most times. *I agree 100%. In a fight to the death, a willing lion or tiger would kill the bear after a brief but savage struggle.
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Post by brobear on Apr 28, 2020 4:11:08 GMT -5
Quotes from Reply @10: 1- PRIDE SIZE: The largest recorded Asiatic pride included five adult females, but most just have two adult females. 2- MALE SOCIABILITY: Male Asiatic lions do not live in prides... they live alone or in partnership with another male lion. The size difference is too close to parity to the bear for him to even consider an attempt at a displacement of a lion or lions over a carcass ( IMHO ). Of course, this works both ways. I have serious doubts that the lion, or even two lions, will bother this bruin when he is feasting on a carcass. The trouble might be with lions preying on juvenile bears and possibly an occasional adult she-bear.
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