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Post by tom on Aug 25, 2020 11:38:43 GMT -5
Well Kodiak the smarter lion fans still aren't as smart as packer when it comes to lions, until they put in the time in the field in the study of lions they got nothing really to say.
I would like to see the same test done over and over in different parts of Africa to see if the same results then and only then can you make some kind of conclusion.
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Post by brobear on Aug 25, 2020 12:08:33 GMT -5
Well Kodiak the smarter lion fans still aren't as smart as packer when it comes to lions, until they put in the time in the field in the study of lions they got nothing really to say. I would like to see the same test done over and over in different parts of Africa to see if the same results then and only then can you make some kind of conclusion. From my perspective, the primary function of the lion's mane is as a signal ( flag/sign ) with a double purpose. A thick heavy black mane will attract the females. They know that this is a dominate male. Also, this magnificent mane acts as a warning to other male lions that, " Beware; I am a fighter." As for personal protection; I do agree that a lion's mane acts as a protective shield, but not to any great degree. Not a game-changer. This use of the mane is simply an added treat.
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Post by tom on Aug 25, 2020 14:07:04 GMT -5
Here is a little more in depth reading on the Black mane vs Blonde mane Lions that Packer and his graduate student studied. I also found it interesting that even dark short haired males were preferred over the long blonde maned males. The color seems to be the deciding factor for the ladies. There also seems to be a direct correlation with the color and testosterone levels. The darker the mane the more testosterone a male has. news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/09/15_edgerlym_lions/#:~:text=This%20is%20where%20Craig%20Packer's,words%2C%20they%20were%20better%20mates.&text=So%20that%20if%20they%20got,mane%20male%2C%22%20Packer%20says.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 27, 2020 8:08:38 GMT -5
Lions fight and also use their mane colour to size each other up.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Oct 11, 2020 15:45:37 GMT -5
This post is dedicated to an excelllent study conducted by Samuels and Van Valkenburgh analyzing various factors that play a major role in the grappling abilities of the felids; I'll list every index and its meaning below (credit goes to Reddhole from Carnivora for sharing this work):
Front Limb Segment Ratio (shorter frontlimbs are very useful for grappling with your opponent; lower score is better)
Humerus/Radius:
1. Jaguar - 81.9% 2. Tiger - 82.4% 3. Cougar - 82.7% 4. Leopard - 83.1% 5. Lion - 89.5%
(Smilodon Fatalis - 78.9%)
Humerus/MTC 3:
1. Jaguar - 32.8% 2. Tiger - 34.0% 3. Leopard/Lion - 34.9% 4. Cougar - 36.5%
(Smilodon Fatalis - 25.2%)
Humerus/Ulna (the precise value here is unknown; so I'll list them in their order):
1. Xenosmilus Hodsonae 2. Smilodon Fatalis 3. Jaguar 4. Tiger 5. Cougar 6. Lion 7. Leopard 8. Homotherium Serum 9. Homotherium Ischyros
Proximal Paw Width
In addition, large prey specialists have proportionally large proximal paw widths (PAW). The width of the proximal paws facilitates a stronger, more stable grip on large prey animals during the initial attack, as it would in gripping substrate (Watkins, 2003) or while climbing (Cartmill, 1985), and allows the force to be distributed more evenly across the entire paw.
1. Tiger – 79.95% 2. Jaguar – 79.81% 3. Lion – 79.73% 4. Snow Leopard – 78.46% 5. Clouded Leopard – 77.09% 6. Leopard – 73.01% 7. Cougar – 68.01%
(Smilodon Fatalis - 100%)
Brachial Index (lower value is better in this case)
With regards to brachial index (BI), Iwaniuk et al. (1999) and Gonyea (1976a) also found similar results. Arboreal felids have shorter radii relative to humeri, and therefore a smaller brachial index (BI) because shortened distal limbs increase the mechanical advantage of forelimb flexors and extensors, allowing arboreal species to climb more effectively. Shorter limbs also lower the center of gravity for arboreal cats favoring the ability to balance on high, narrow tree branches (Cartmill, 1985).
1. Clouded Leopard – 79.90% 2. Jaguar – 83.33% 3. Leopard – 84.87% 4. Cougar – 85.35% 5. Tiger – 85.56% 6. Snow Leopard – 89.01% 7. Lion – 91.13%
Humerus Robusticity Index
The results of this study suggest that large prey specialists have relatively robust forelimbs when compared with smaller prey specialists. Both the humerus (HRI) and radius (RRI) diaphyses were found to be consistently robust. This increased robusticity functions to protect against bending and torsion when under increased stress (Ruff and Hayes, 1983; Lanyon and Rubin, 1985), such as that encountered when grappling with large prey. The increased robustness in the humeri and radii of large prey specialists may also translate into a proportionally thicker cortical area of the humerus diaphysis, a possibility that will be explored in a future study.
1. Jaguar - 8.81% 2. Tiger - 8.53% 3. Lion - 8.44% 4. Snow Leopard - 8.15% 5. Leopard/Snow Leopard - 7.98% 6. Cougar - 7.64%
Humeral - Epicondylar Index
The humeral epicondylar index (HEI) was larger in large prey specialists. The humeral epicondyles serve as the origin for many muscles that stabilize the wrist during prey capture, such as: m. pronator teres, m. extensor carpi radialis, m. extensor carpi ulnaris, m. flexor carpi radialis, and m. flexor carpi ulnaris (Hebel and Stromberg, 1976; Schaller, 1992). The humeral epicondyles are also the point of origin of many of the digital flexor and extensor muscles that facilitate grasping of large prey during capture, such as: m. extensor digitorum communis, m. extensor digitorum lateralis, m. flexor digitorum superficialis, m. palmaris longus, and m. flexor digitorum profundus, in part (Hebel and Stromberg, 1976; Schaller, 1992). These larger epicondyles allow for larger originations and thereby larger muscles.
1. Tiger – 25.98% 2. Lion – 25.55% 3. Jaguar – 25.52% 4. Clouded Leopard – 24.11% 5. Snow Leopard – 24.10% 6. Leopard – 22.50% 7. Cougar – 21.57%
Olecranon Index
As found by Iwaniuk et al. (1999), the olecranon process of the ulna was relatively larger (OI) in large prey specialists. The triceps muscles insert on the olecranon process and are used primarily in arm extension. Increased size of these muscles would proffer a greater ability to push prey to the ground and hold them down while they position themselves for a killing bite.
1. Tiger – 22.47% 2. Snow Leopard – 21.19% 3. Lion – 20.78% 4. Jaguar – 19.92% 5. Leopard – 18.73% 6. Clouded Leopard – 18.07% 7. Cougar – 17.56%
(Smilodon Fatalis - 25%)
Radial Robusticity Index
This measures radius mediolateral diameter at midshaft divided by radius length. As mentioned above for humerus robusticity, a robust radius resists stresses on bones during fights and increases resistance to bites to the forelimb.
1. Jaguar - 10.16% 2. Clouded Leopard - 9.69% 3. Tiger - 9.45% 4. Lion - 9.15% 5. Cougar - 8.99% 6. Leopard - 8.89% 7. Snow Leopard - 8.82%
Manus Proportions
Small prey specialists also have elongated phalanges relative to metacarpals (MCP), which again shows distal elongation. Distal elongation likely provides a velocity advantage for catching small, elusive prey.
1. Clouded Leopard – 60.53% 2. Snow Leopard – 56.04% 3. Tiger – 48.91% 4. Jaguar – 47.36% 5. Lion – 39.01% 6. Cougar – 29.33% 7. Leopard – 27.19%
Radial Articular Area
In addition, large prey specialists differed significantly from both of the other groups in having relatively broader paws (PAW), and larger distal radial and metacarpal articular surface areas (RAI, RAA, and MC3RAA).
1. Tiger – 13.11% 2. Jaguar – 12.19% 3. Clouded Leopard – 11.47% 4. Cougar – 11.38% 5. Lion – 11.30% 6. Snow Leopard – 11.18% 7. Leopard – 11.00%
Humeral Condylar Index
The distal articulation of the humerus (HCI) is also relatively larger in large prey specialists. Andersson (2004) also found increased distal articular area of the humerus in forelimb grappling carnivorans. This portion of the humerus articulates with the ulna and is responsible for unilateral extension of the forearm and also pronation and supination of the antebrachium. A larger articular area would provide more stability for antebrachial extension and non parasagittal movements (Gonyea and Ashworth, 1975; Gonyea, 1978; Andersson, 2004), a wider range of motion for forearm positioning and prey grappling and also an increased ability to better distribute large loads (Ruff, 1988).
1. Lion – 18.00% 2. Jaguar/Tiger – 17.21% 3. Clouded Leopard – 16.63% 4. Snow Leopard – 16.43% 5. Leopard – 15.38% 6. Cougar – 14.35%
Metacarpal 3 Robustness Index
This measures the robusticity of metacarpal 3 or longest finger/digit. More robust metacarpal 3 may assist with grappling or stresses exerted with feet on ground during a fight.
1. Jaguar – 13.41% 2. Lion – 12.52% 3. Clouded Leopard – 12.19% 4. Tiger – 12.09% 5. Snow Leopard – 12.08% 6. Leopard – 11.95% 7. Cougar – 11.30%
Humeral Distal Articular Area
Andersson (2004) also found increased distal articular area of the humerus in forelimb grappling carnivorans. This portion of the humerus articulates with the ulna and is responsible for unilateral extension of the forearm and also pronation and supination of the antebrachium. A larger articular area would provide more stability for antebrachial extension and non-parasagittal movements (Gonyea and Ashworth, 1975; Gonyea, 1978; Andersson, 2004), a wider range of motion for forearm positioning and prey grappling and also an increased ability to better distribute large r loads (Ruff, 1988).
1. Tiger – 17.61% 2. Lion – 17.17% 3. Jaguar – 16.25% 4. Snow Leopard – 15.51% 5. Cougar – 15.07% 6. Leopard – 14.84% 7. Clouded Leopard – 14.75%
Radial Articular Area
Even if the same scaling processes that act on the skull do not act on the forelimbs, negative allometry in limb bone lengths and positive allometry in muscle attachment sites and articular areas helps to reinforce the forelimbs against the stresses encountered by large, struggling prey.
1. Tiger – 13.11% 2. Jaguar – 12.19% 3. Clouded Leopard – 11.47% 4. Cougar – 11.38% 5. Lion – 11.30% 6. Snow Leopard – 11.18% 7. Leopard – 11.00%
Metacarpal 3 Distal Articular Area
Proximal paw width (PAW) and the distal articular area of the third metacarpal (MC3RAA) differed significantly among prey size and locomotor groups. Both of these variables would confer an advantage while climbing. As in large prey specialists, a wider paw would increase the surface area of the manus while climbing and increase frictional resistance (Cartmill, 1985). Greater distal articular area of the metacarpals would increase the range of motion in the digits to assure a better grip while climbing on thinner branches (Ruff, 1988).
1. Jaguar – 13.41% 2. Lion – 12.52% 3. Clouded Leopard – 12.19% 4. Tiger – 12.09% 5. Snow Leopard – 12.08% 6. Leopard – 11.95% 7. Cougar – 11.30%
Canine ML Diameter (basically measures the robusticity of the canines using a length/width - ratio)
1. Tiger - 18.26 2. Lion - 17.07 3. Jaguar - 13.43 4. Leopard - 11.27 5. Cougar - 9.84 6. Clouded Leopard - 8.50 7. Snow Leopard - 5.93
(Panthera Atrox - 21.28) (Smilodon Fatalis - 18.80)
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 11, 2020 16:39:57 GMT -5
Great post Taker. You see any surprises? I noticed the lion only takes the top place in the Humeral Condylar Index.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Oct 11, 2020 17:23:50 GMT -5
Well, I'd have expected the lion to rank higher on some occasions but it is how it is. What really astounded me is the clouded leopard, a really impressive cat on a lbs for lbs level. But one can clearly see that the ancient cats were a league above our extant pantherines in terms of physicality.
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2020 17:44:32 GMT -5
I notice that ( if I'm understanding some of this correctly ) the jaguar is ranking pretty high-up on the list.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 11, 2020 18:53:19 GMT -5
Yeah definitely. The Smilodon Fatalis had all the top scores where it was involved (except Canine ML Diameter), So just imagine the Populator.
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Post by brobear on Oct 12, 2020 2:47:37 GMT -5
Yeah definitely. The Smilodon Fatalis had all the top scores where it was involved (except Canine ML Diameter), So just imagine the Populator.
I agree; Smilodon fatalis and populator were monsters among cats. It would be interesting to see how a brown bear would compare.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 12, 2020 3:38:52 GMT -5
Yeah definitely. The Smilodon Fatalis had all the top scores where it was involved (except Canine ML Diameter), So just imagine the Populator.
I agree; Smilodon fatalis and populator were monsters among cats. It would be interesting to see how a brown bear would compare. I think Taker has made a few size comparisons. A brown bear of similar weight will still has a wider chest girth and will be slightly shorter.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Oct 12, 2020 3:52:31 GMT -5
I remember reading through this excerpt here; it's from Therrien's study on the mandibular profiles of extant carnivores. This section is about Panthera atrox, the American lion:
"The Zx/Zycanine value of Panthera atrox (1.84; Fig. 5) is much higher than that of other large felids and similar to Neofelis nebulosa, indicating that dorsoventral stresses prevailed in the symphyseal region and that labiolingual and torsional stresses exerted by struggling prey were relatively lower. While it is generally agreed that the large body size of Panthera atrox allowed it to tackle very large herbivores, such as bison, horses, ground sloths, camels, and proboscideans (e.g. Kurt´en & Anderson, 1980; Harris, 1992; Anyonge, 1993), it seems paradoxical for this Pleistocene predator to have experienced lower torsional stresses than by extant lions that hunt smaller prey (Schaller, 1972). Although extant felids use their forelimbs and claws to restrain prey (Gonyea&Ashworth, 1975), their jaws must still be able to remain locked on the neck or muzzle of prey and withstand the unpredictable stresses induced as prey struggle to escape. If Panthera atrox were a predator of large herbivores, one would expect it to have Zx/Zycanine values similar to, or even lower than, those of extant lions. Claw and tooth marks left on a Pleistocene steppe bison mummy (Bison priscus; M. L. Guthrie, 1988; R. D. Guthrie, 1990) suggest that Panthera atrox adopted killing techniques similar to those used by modern lions. However, Anyonge (1996) has shown that the cross-sectional geometric properties (i.e. bending strength) of the limbs of Panthera atrox, particularly of the humerus, were much greater than those of the extant lion, being closer to those of the brown bear, Ursus arctos. In other words, the extinct lion had much stronger forelimbs than an extant lion of similar body size. Therefore, large prey could have been primarily subdued and restrained by the extremely powerful forelimbs of Panthera atrox, which would have greatly reduced stresses on the mandible during the canine bite. Furthermore, because the Zx/Zycanine values of Panthera atrox are so high, it is possible that cooperative hunting may have been common practice in that species, where one or a few individuals would have restrained a large herbivore while another delivered the canine killing bite. Indeed, the high degree of cephalization observed in Panthera atrox (Kurt´en & Anderson, 1980), the claw and tooth marks left on a bison mummy, and native American cave paintings (M. L. Guthrie, 1988; R. D. Guthrie, 1990) suggest that the extinct lion may have hunted in small groups of two or three individuals, rather than in a pride. This possibility is further supported by the size distribution of Panthera atrox individuals in the Rancho La Brea deposits, which indicates that the extinct lion did not form prides as modern lions do but may have hunted in pairs or alone (Jefferson, 1992)."
Have a closer look at the section that I highlighted; it seems that the American lion had such robust humeri that they were closer to the stoutness of a brown bear's humerus than to that of a lion's. It seems that a brown bear's upper arm is more robust than even that of the extinct American lion.
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Post by brobear on Oct 12, 2020 4:02:32 GMT -5
Thank you 'Taker. Great info. As a kid, I had dinosaurs on the brain. I lived, breathed, ate, and drank dinosaurs. I had a big box filled with colorful plastic dinosaurs. But now, in my adult life; I am far more fascinated with the Pleistocene Epoch.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 12, 2020 11:13:31 GMT -5
(Panthera Atrox - 21.28) (Smilodon Fatalis - 18.80)
Considering that the Smilodon Populator had even longer canines than Fatalis, this would mean, in theory, that the Populator had even less robust canines than Fatalis. would this theory be correct Undertaker?
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Post by theundertaker45 on Oct 12, 2020 11:49:25 GMT -5
King KodiakIt depends on if the Smilodon Populator not only had longer canines but also proportionately more robust ones. I'll look for some data on it. You have to take into account that the Populator was larger than Fatalis; therefore his value should be higher considering all things being equal.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 12, 2020 11:54:52 GMT -5
I dont know about robust, but the Populator did have longer canines than Fatalis:
"Smilodon is most famous for its relatively long canine teeth, which are the longest found in the saber-toothed cats, at about 28 cm (11 in) long in the largest species, S. populator"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilodon
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Post by brobear on Oct 12, 2020 11:57:48 GMT -5
I dont know about robust, but the Populator did have longer canines than Fatalis: *But were they proportionately longer?
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 12, 2020 12:04:21 GMT -5
The problem is that we dont know the width of the Populator's canines, we only know the length. So lets just assume for a second that the Populator and Fatalis had the same width, this would mean that Fatalis canines would be more robust because we do know that Populator's canines were longer. So the width/length ratio would be in favour of Fatalis. But who knows? Maybe the Populator had even more width than Fatalis. I am just theorizing.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 12, 2020 18:46:32 GMT -5
/\ The clouded leopards does have longer canines than any other car in proportion to its size so your theory does have an interesting point.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 15, 2020 9:29:54 GMT -5
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