|
|
Post by Polar on Sept 11, 2018 16:14:43 GMT -5
Agree, brobear. Except with displacement of Smilodon by American lion. Although the tar pits were said to have a higher ratio of Smilodons than American lions, this in itself doesn't give any indication that Smilodon was dumber or was outcompeted by lions, and I think there are many more factors. Many Smilodons lived in the area and were more apt to hunt larger prey than the American lions, however, maybe the larger prey were more apt to get stuck in the tar pits and Smilodon sought more opportunities. In California, lions were normally more nomadic (lions are generally more apt to be nomads) than Smilodons and moved along with the seasons, while Smilodons stayed in one area more-or-less.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 26, 2018 4:51:01 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ posted by epaiva Homotherium serum had long, slender forelimbs and a relatively long neck suggesting it was a more cursorial predator than the bear-like Smilodon. It had a holarctic distribution, so was cold-adapted to some degree with thick fur. It was approximately the size of the modern African Lion (Panthera leo). Scimitar-toothed cats, like dirk-toothed cats, had enlarged upper canines. These teeth were curved, serrated, and razor-sharp. It measured 110 cm height at the shoulders and weighted 150-230 kg. Although rarer than Smilodon, scimitar cats had a wider range during the last ice age, and have been recovered from Florida to the Yukon. In 2008, H. serum was recovered from Tyson Spring Cave in Fillmore County, southeastern Minnesota. DNA from this animal was very similar to much earlier H. serum from the Yukon suggesting very minor population changes over large geographic and chronological distances (Widga et al. 2012). Homotherium seems to have combined strength with short bursts of speed and agility. It probably engaged in prolonged pursuit of its prey more often than Smilodon. The scimitar cat was able to see well during the day. The recovery of cubs and adults from caves in Texas and Tennessee suggest that these animals lived in dens, possibly as family groups. An assemblage of multiple scimitar cats (13 cubs + 20 adults) associated with the remains of over 300 juvenile mammoths from Friesenhahn Cave in Texas suggests that these cats selectively preyed on juvenile mammoths. This is further supported by the association of multiple mastodons with two adult and one juvenile scimitar cat at Gassaway Fissure, Cannon County, Tennessee (Rawn-Schatzinger 1992).
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Nov 6, 2018 14:48:35 GMT -5
Smilodon fatalis vs Pleistocene grizzly at similar weight. Who would win in a face-off over a bison carcass? I would bet on the grizzly for several reasons. ( 1 ) As you can see from the second post on this topic, while the saber-toothed cat was stronger than a similar-sized pantherine, the great bear was stronger still. ( 2 ) Unlike a lion or a tiger, Smilodon will not bite until he has a clear opportunity for the coup de gras ( a killing bite ). But the grizzly will be fighting with both claws and teeth. ( 3 ) The grizzly is my favorite.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 0:12:05 GMT -5
Smilodon fatalis vs Pleistocene grizzly at similar weight. Who would win in a face-off over a bison carcass? I would bet on the grizzly for several reasons. ( 1 ) As you can see from the second post on this topic, while the saber-toothed cat was stronger than a similar-sized pantherine, the great bear was stronger still. ( 2 ) Unlike a lion or a tiger, Smilodon will not bite until he has a clear opportunity for the coup de gras ( a killing bite ). But the grizzly will be fighting with both claws and teeth. ( 3 ) The grizzly is my favorite. I remember reading from a source a while back that the saber tooth tiger had had weak bite. I will see if I can find the source. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2018 17:23:00 GMT -5
First posted by Tigerluver ( biologist ). wildfact.com/forum/
Smilodon populator - A new fossil and questions about bone robusticity to cursoriality, among other issues
Browsing through some older document, I found one of great insight to Smilodon fatalis and S. populator morphology, Relationships between North and South American Smilodon by Björn Kurtén and Lars Werdelin. The differences between the forms were analyzed by this work, and you can read up on it in the attachment.
Postcranial anatomy interests me the most. For one, I found a record size humerus of 410 mm. Isometrically comparing to the bear humerus of 400.5 mm, this specimen would be about 470 kg (a post on p. 1 explains why bears may be better isometric basis for this species). This humerus puts S. populator back at the top of felid weights. But there's a caveat.
The same document found that "the forelimb of S. populator is somewhat longer, relative to the hindlimb, than in S. fatalis. Such a lengthening of the forelimb is a characteristic of the open plains."
An example of this observation is the fact that lion has a proportionally longer humerus and ulna compared to the hindlimb bones, being the only big cat living almost exclusively in the open plains. This morphological characteristic results in overestimation of mass from all bone measurements when comparing to a more average proportional individual. Bone length overestimates because the bone is disproportionately long, and width dimensions overestimate because the width is more for accommodating running stress than muscle in such cases.
The brown bear has much shorter frontlimbs than hindlimbs are compared to S. populator, and a bit shorter proportions compared to S. fatalis. In this form, S. fatalis is more robust and bear-like than S. populator, but neither were probably as muscular as a bear, but rather some of the bone width was more for running stress similarly to how lions bones have widened so greatly as compared to other cats.
With that, the S. populator estimation using the brown bear as the base is probably an overestimate, or faulty at the least. S. fatalis reconstructions from a brown bear may be a bit less of an overestimate. Smilodon would lack the posterior weight the bear would in the this areas due to the FL/HL discrepancy, and thus the two species are not analogous, at least for humerus calculations. It is very possible the opposite effects of mass estimation would occur if a brown bear femur is being compared to the proportionately shorter Smilodon femur.
Smilodon's femur is proportionately much larger than its tibia compared to all pantherines by a long ways. Its humerus is also proportionately larger than its ulna, a ratio only matched by the very robust leopard and jaguar. The longer proximal bones is indicative of the fact that Smilodon is indeed much more heavily built than the lion and the tiger, and somewhat more heavyset than the leopard and jaguar.
From this, maybe the best route of Smilodon reconstruction would be one width dimensions and/or the length dimension of the bone, either allometrically or isometrically compared to only jaguars and leopards. The type of bone being used would also have to be taken into account to predict the accuracy of the estimation. Forelimb estimates may be overestimates somewhat, and vice versa for hindlimb estimates.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2018 17:23:49 GMT -5
Continued.... by Tigerluver... The cursoriality and locomotion topic is a bit convoluted. One can pick one trait of an organism and attribute it to a certain locomotion and sound accurate, but then another similar trait of another organism results in a completely different, unexpected behavior and things stop making much sense.
The extremely sloped back of S. populator and somewhat sloped back of S. fatalis do not seem favorable to much high intensity running in my head, it just seems a bit off balance. Having proportionately longer proximal long bones (humerus, femur, the bone more associated with mass of the body's core) than distal long bones also makes the much running or sprinting less likely, as to be a runner or a sprinter, you'd want more ulna/tibia (the light bones which increase stride), than femur/humerus. Spoor (1986) attributes sloped backs to the assignment of the center of mass, where "In hyenas it is situated more cranial than in other large carnivores due to the heavy musculature of the fore limb, the long neck and the powerful jaws." S. populator has the first two characteristics of the hyena. Maybe it used the frontal center of mass in pinning down prey better, reducing risk to its canines.
*This makes perfect sense to me. Long front legs and short back legs is not the build of a runner - what ever gave anyone that notion? Look at the cheetah.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2018 17:24:57 GMT -5
messybeast.com/cat-prehistory.htm
The Machairodontinae are true cats and their fossils have been found in North America, Europe, Asia and Africa. Although we tend to think of the sabre-toothed tiger, there were two varieties of sabre-toothed cats: dirk-toothed cats and scimitar-toothed cats. Dirk-toothed cats had two long, narrow upper canines, and were usually short-legged and stocky. Scimitar-toothed cats had upper canines that were shorter and broader, longer, thinner legs and were generally more lithe. The exception was a cat known as Xenosmilus, which has the short, broad canines of a scimitar-toothed cat, but has short legs.
Modern cats have conical canine teeth, but the machairodonts' (machairodont means "sabre tooth") canines were flattened from side to side (like a blade) as well as being elongated. To accommodate their large canines, they had fewer upper premolar teeth. Their incisor teeth were larger, angled differently and placed further forward than in modern cats. Other adaptations allowed them to open their jaws extremely wide and gave them strong neck muscles. Some species, such as Megantereon, had a bony flange that protruded downward from the front of their lower jaw.
Although the sabre-toothed cats have long dagger-like canines, these were probably too blunt and fragile to be used to stab prey. They were unlikely to have gone for the nape of the neck to sever the spine, like many modern cats. If they hit bone, they could shatter (leading to abscesses and possibly fatal bacterial infections). The current theory is that sabre-toothed cats went for the soft throat of their prey, using their powerful teeth to sever the arteries and windpipe.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2018 17:25:31 GMT -5
Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 at 1:41pm
library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/_extinct/smilodon/smilodon.htm
Estimated Body Weight:
Smilodon fatalis: 160-280 kg (353-617 lb)
Smilodon gracilis: 55-100 kg (121-221 lb)
Smilodon populator: Up to 400 kg (882 lb)
Body Length: Smilodon fatalis: 175 cm (68.9 in) (measured rump to snout)
Height at Shoulder: Smilodon fatalis: 100 cm (39.37 in)
Tail Length: Smilodon fatalis: 35 cm (13.8 in)
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Nov 12, 2018 5:30:38 GMT -5
First posted by Tigerluver ( biologist ). wildfact.com/forum/
Smilodon populator - A new fossil and questions about bone robusticity to cursoriality, among other issues
Browsing through some older document, I found one of great insight to Smilodon fatalis and S. populator morphology, Relationships between North and South American Smilodon by Björn Kurtén and Lars Werdelin. The differences between the forms were analyzed by this work, and you can read up on it in the attachment.
Postcranial anatomy interests me the most. For one, I found a record size humerus of 410 mm. Isometrically comparing to the bear humerus of 400.5 mm, this specimen would be about 470 kg (a post on p. 1 explains why bears may be better isometric basis for this species). This humerus puts S. populator back at the top of felid weights. But there's a caveat.
The same document found that "the forelimb of S. populator is somewhat longer, relative to the hindlimb, than in S. fatalis. Such a lengthening of the forelimb is a characteristic of the open plains."
An example of this observation is the fact that lion has a proportionally longer humerus and ulna compared to the hindlimb bones, being the only big cat living almost exclusively in the open plains. This morphological characteristic results in overestimation of mass from all bone measurements when comparing to a more average proportional individual. Bone length overestimates because the bone is disproportionately long, and width dimensions overestimate because the width is more for accommodating running stress than muscle in such cases.
The brown bear has much shorter frontlimbs than hindlimbs are compared to S. populator, and a bit shorter proportions compared to S. fatalis. In this form, S. fatalis is more robust and bear-like than S. populator, but neither were probably as muscular as a bear, but rather some of the bone width was more for running stress similarly to how lions bones have widened so greatly as compared to other cats.
With that, the S. populator estimation using the brown bear as the base is probably an overestimate, or faulty at the least. S. fatalis reconstructions from a brown bear may be a bit less of an overestimate. Smilodon would lack the posterior weight the bear would in the this areas due to the FL/HL discrepancy, and thus the two species are not analogous, at least for humerus calculations. It is very possible the opposite effects of mass estimation would occur if a brown bear femur is being compared to the proportionately shorter Smilodon femur.
Smilodon's femur is proportionately much larger than its tibia compared to all pantherines by a long ways. Its humerus is also proportionately larger than its ulna, a ratio only matched by the very robust leopard and jaguar. The longer proximal bones is indicative of the fact that Smilodon is indeed much more heavily built than the lion and the tiger, and somewhat more heavyset than the leopard and jaguar.
From this, maybe the best route of Smilodon reconstruction would be one width dimensions and/or the length dimension of the bone, either allometrically or isometrically compared to only jaguars and leopards. The type of bone being used would also have to be taken into account to predict the accuracy of the estimation. Forelimb estimates may be overestimates somewhat, and vice versa for hindlimb estimates.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 4, 2018 8:47:40 GMT -5
Smilodon populator, Panthera tigris soloensis, Panthera atrox, Panthera spelaea, and a few others it appears ( to me ) that they reached the natural size limit for the big cats.
This size limit would be roughly 600 pounds ( 272 kg ) average weight and roughly 1000 pounds maximum weight ( 454 kg ).
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 19, 2018 9:51:27 GMT -5
From Carnivora.
Smilodon populator
Smilodon, often called a saber-toothed cat or wrongly a saber-toothed tiger, is an extinct genus of machairodonts. This saber-toothed cat was endemic to North America and South America, living from near the beginning through the very end of the Pleistocene epoch (2.5 mya—10,000 years ago). Smilodon populator ("Smilodon the Devastator"), 1 million-10,000 years ago; occurred in the eastern parts of South America and was the largest species of all machairodonts. It was much larger than its cousins, S. fatalis and S. gracilis, possessing a massive chest and front legs, and is the largest known variety of saber-toothed cat. It was more than 1.40 m (55 in) high at the shoulder, 2.6 m (100 in) long on average and had a 30 cm (12 in) tail. Smilodon populator was substantially heavier and larger than any extant felid, with a body mass range of 220–360 kg. Particularly large specimens of S. populator almost certainly exceeded 400 kg in body mass. Its upper canines reached 30 cm (12 in) and protruded up to 17 cm (6.7 in) out of the upper jaw. Genetic evidence suggests that Smilodon populator and other members of the genus diverged from the main lineage of modern cats (subfamily Felinae) around 14-18 million years ago.
360 kilograms is equal to
793.66 pounds (avoirdupois)
Average male likely about 700-pounds. Maximum perhaps 900-pounds.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2018 13:01:01 GMT -5
Smilodon was an extremely muscular big cat. Much more so than a lion or a tiger. However, when you look at him from above you can see that, just as with all cats, he has a narrow body. The body of a bear is broader, thicker, and more "square-shaped" which is clearly a more sturdy body-plan.   Regardless of what big cat fan-boys love to say, Smilodon was NOT stronger than a grizzly of similar size. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Feb 18, 2019 5:40:06 GMT -5
There are no doubts that this cat learned to avoid the big boar grizzly.  |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Feb 18, 2019 14:07:46 GMT -5
Size of the biggest of the big cats - Size: was around 2.3 meters ( 7 feet 6 inches ) long, 1.2 meters ( 3 feet 11 inches ) tall at the shoulder. Weight estimated about 400 kg. ( 880 pounds ). A grizzly of similar height and length would weigh this. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Feb 18, 2019 14:21:11 GMT -5
www.grizzlyencounter.org/meet-the-bears-3 Hi, my name is Brutus The Bear. I was born at an overcrowded wildlife park in 2002, where my future was uncertain. My future human parents adopted me at an early age; I was about the size of a squirrel. Currently I am about seven feet tall on my hind legs and close to nine hundred pounds in weight. Casey and Ami raised me and could see right away that I was special. I enjoyed a lot of attention and loved to be in front of a camera. This has led me to be in many educational videos on bear safety. I have also had small parts in five movies, Iron Ridge, Pretty Ugly People, Discovering America, Mt. Molehill and Walking Out. I am best known for co-hosting Expedition Wild with Casey Anderson. I spend most of my days as an ambassador for my wild cousins; educating visitors from all around the world about bear safety and conservation. My hobbies are roughhousing with Bella, swimming in my ponds, foraging for treats, breaking stuff, and hamming it up for the visitors. My favorite dinner is a large elk and avocado salad with huckleberry ice cream for dessert! *Note: a grizzly like Brutus has greater girth than Smilodon populator. It just doesn't make sense that a big cat might be as heavy as a grizzly at similar head-and-body length or bipedal height. The weights of prehistoric cats ( IMO ) are always overestimated.  
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Feb 19, 2019 0:20:39 GMT -5
From Ryo at carnivora.net/index.php I think the Populators average weight was 350kgm ( 772 pounds ) and 400kg ( 882 poiunds ) and above would be a really big specimen. *Note: I believe that Ryo is a pretty smart guy. But just looking at how fat ( normal for a grizzly - not obese ) Brutus is, and knowing that he and S. populator are at length and height parity, I must question how might the lean big cat and fat bear each weigh the same? |
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Feb 19, 2019 4:35:26 GMT -5
Because Mr Ryo is just overweighting the Populator. What he mentioned are just max weights, not average.
S. populator from South America was the largest species, at 220 to 400 kg (490 to 880 lb) in weight and 120 cm (47 in) in height, and was among the largest known felids.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilodon
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Feb 19, 2019 4:43:41 GMT -5
Because Mr Ryo is just overweighting the Populator. What he mentioned are just max weights, not average.
S. populator from South America was the largest species, at 220 to 400 kg (490 to 880 lb) in weight and 120 cm (47 in) in height, and was among the largest known felids.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilodon
Everywhere I look; same sizes given. This by the experts. However, the fact remains that the shoulder height and head-and-body length match that of Brutus... ? |
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Feb 19, 2019 4:51:14 GMT -5
Because Mr Ryo is just overweighting the Populator. What he mentioned are just max weights, not average.
S. populator from South America was the largest species, at 220 to 400 kg (490 to 880 lb) in weight and 120 cm (47 in) in height, and was among the largest known felids.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilodon
Everywhere I look; same sizes given. This by the experts. However, the fact remains that the shoulder height and head-and-body length match that of Brutus... ? Well it could be the absolute largest specimen of a populator brobear. That is the only thing i can think of. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Feb 19, 2019 5:22:23 GMT -5
What shoulder height and head-and-body length would a Smilodon need to weight as much as Brutus? I believe that 7 feet 6 inches long and 3 feet 11 inches tall are the max. Ryo gives 770 pounds as average; 880 as max. These numbers sound good until you compare Smilodon with a grizzly. Perhaps there is "something" I'm not seeing?
|
|
