Smilodon populator / Ursus arctos

[brobear]

Continued.... Now, to minus the limb length, 3.5-2.857=0.643. This should mean that the brown bear's shoulder hump is about 6 inches tall, at average (or at least, when the hump is erect, which it will be in some phases of running or digging.) Now, to find out how wide. While I don't have any evidence of this, pictures seem to clearly show a brown bear's shoulder hump is noticeably wider than it is high.
So when we calculate how wide the shoulder hump of a brown bear is, we will use the term "at least wider than", since the shoulder hump of a brown bear is wider than it is tall. Now than, we know the shoulder hump of an average brown bear is at least wider than six inches, but what is the actual circumference of the hump? Having a hump at least wider than six inches, we can use pi to find out (note that we will use pi to the hundred-millionth unit.) 6*pi=18.84955592153876. However, since the shoulder hump is only half a circle, due to meeting with the back before completion, we must divide this by two- 18.84955592153876/2=9.42477796. So we now know that the shoulder hump of an average brown bear should at least have a circumference greater than 9.42477796 inches. Now, another question must be asked, what is the area of a an average brown bear's shoulder hump? We can find this by multiplying pi by the radius squared. So, pi*3^2= 28.27433385. However, since once more the shoulder hump of a brown bear is only half a circle we must once more, divide by two, so 28.27433385/2=14.137166925.

Now the important phase, I would like to find out the weight of a brown bear's shoulder hump. The area of an average brown bear's shoulder hump is greater than 14.137166925 inches, or 1.17809724375 feet. How much area will this many feet of a brown bear weight. We will be using the grizzly bear in this scenario, since brown bear size is extremely fluctuating. This source (http://www.defenders.org/...wildlife/grizzly_bear.php ) says the average grizzly is 6-7 in length, and gives a median of 575 pounds. Now, to give an approximation of the weight of a grizzly bear's shoulder hump, we will divide the average weight of the bear by its average length. We aren't done yet however, we must also take into account a bear's fore- and hind limbs, as these make up some of the bear's weight as well, rather than just the torso. To account for the bear's hind and forelimbs, we will multiply the forelimb length and hind limb lengths given by the chart in the "Neuromuscular evolution" thread by two, and add them together, than add them to the bear's torso length. 2.857*2= 5.714, 2.802*2= 5.604, 5.714+5.604= 11.318. So, now we will add this length to the range of the bear's torso length, 11.318+6= 17.318, 11.318+7= 18.318. Now, we will divide the bear's weight by this length to find out how much weight a bear gains when it gains a foot in length, 575/17.318= 33.20244839667398082919505716595, 575/18= 31.944444444444443. So, every other foot added onto a bear should give it a gain of 33.20244839667398082919505716595-31.944444444444443 pounds. Now, to find our estimation for the shoulder hump weight we can stimply add on 17.809724375% of the weight our ranges gave us for per square foot of a grizzly bear.
So, 33.20244839667398082919505716595+17.067652520105092%= 38.8693269, and 31.944444444444443 +17.067652520105092%= 37.3966112. However, it should be noted since seven feet was the upper weight range in length for a bear, we're likely talking about a bear closer to 625 pounds with the shoulder hump weight estimate, and since the shoulder hump of a bear lacks bones, in order to optimize muscle attachment, the overall weight will also likely (although not necessarily so, because bears for the most part, have all muscle in their shoulder hump, whereas the hips of a bear will show less weight per square foot due to the fact that's where the fat of a ursine is, and fat weighs less than muscle) be on the lower end of the estimation.

Now, we can make a chart listing the statistics of a brown bear's shoulder hump.

[brobear]

Continued....
Shoulder hump

Height- six inches.
Width- greater than six inches.
Circumference- greater than 9.42477796 inches.
Area- greater than 14.137166925 inches.
Estimated weight (roughly)- 38.8693269-37.3966112 pounds.
Percentage of body weight estimation- 6.759882939130435-6.503758469565218%

To sum up the shoulder hump section, we can conclude the extra hump of muscle a brown bear will have will have a noticeable effect on the conclusion, as seemingly 36 pounds of muscle will be gained in this area; this would mean a feline's muscles would need to be much more powerful than those of a bear to ditigate the effect of an extra 30+ pounds of muscle; something which is highly unlikely.

[brobear]

Continued.... Hindlimbs and Function****

Some people believe the hindlimbs of brown bears and felids aren't important when concidering relative strength, but I disagree; the hindquarters of an animal will often give omens to what the forelimbs are best designed for.

To start out with this section, I'd like to show the difference in forelimb relative to hind limb size of ursines and felids. We can find this difference by subtracting the hind limb length, from the forelimb length of the ursines and felids respectively, these figures are given in the chart in section 1.0, and will be posted by me below-

Genus: Panthera

P. leo- 0.045

P. tigris- 0.075

P. pardus- 0.087

P. onca- 0.077

Genus: Ursus

U. maritimus- 0.065

U. arctos- 0.055

U. americanus- 0.041

[brobear]

Continued....
So what does this mean? Felines are more streamlined than bears. Being more streamlined is a good way to decrease air resistance, and overall increase speed. Before we continue, I'm sure you're all wondering how can this be true when the lion is perhaps the fastest felid in the genus Panthera, and certainly faster than any bear species. The reason has to do with other factors, such as the length of the limbs, and back, which increase stride length by a good margin, and having longer limbs than any other feline species (although contradicted by the chart, accepted by most all other sources) increases the leverage which limbs can move at, hence increasing frequency as well. As a note as well, a lion should still be more streamlined than a ursine because of its longer spinal cord, which makes it a larger framed animal with similar body weight. However, in being more streamlined than bears, felids also lose muscle mass on their vertebrae.

We will now look at the girth of the limbs of bears and felines throughout the entrie hind legs,(

) -

Black bears are not efficient predators, primarily because their skeletons are designed for strength rather than speed. They have thick limbs, massive shoulders, and a short back. None of these attributes is expressly designed to increase speed. Instead, they provide the black bear with strength and power. In addition, the muscles are thick the entire length of the leg, rather than tapered towards the foot, like a cat's. A thicker muscle close to the hip and shoulder improves speed, while a thick muscle mass stretching the entire length of the leg is equivalent to trying to run with weights on your feet! Longer metapodials, or foot bones, also increase stride length and improve speed. Black bears have relatively short metapodials.

Note where the article says the black bear's muscles are thick throughout the entire length of its leg, whereas the same isn't true for a felid. This is because of the fact a feline legs are built to make them explosive. Giving a feline thinner limbs throughout the entire length of the leg allows it to bend its leg to a greater degree, and thus give it greater potential energy when converting it to kinetic energy. Since afterall, calves are what power leaping, and not being able to bend them hardly allows an animal to jump. Where a feline such as a tiger can leap a few meters vertically ( www.youtube.com/wa...BDbeE&feature=related ), the Great Bear Almanac mentions a bear not being able to jump while standing on its hind limbs. However, this isn't actually true as I've seen a bear jumping vertically while standing on two limbs, except that they can hardly jump high enough to consider it a jump. In addition, it provides a feline with a great range of motion with its claws; this is evident when two felids fight, and they show the incredible flexibility in kicking at one another with their hind limbs.

So what's the anatomical advantage ursines have in having limbs thick throughout the entire length of the leg? First of all, it provides greater stability, as it means better sway when having a force such as a push put on it. The physiology of a bear's hind paws, limbs and the whole hindquarters in general seem to be adapted for stability and traction. The claws of a ursine's hind paws, are shorter and have a greater curve than the claws in the forepaws. They are similar to a feline's claws, however the claws of a bear's hind limbs also aren't retractile; this feature likely evolved so when a brown or black bear is attacking large prey, and when it attempts to control the head of the bovine, it can use these claws for greater traction on the ground so as not to fall over when being pushed. Polar bears likely have sharp unretractable claws in their hind paws in order to get a good grip on the ice they walk and run on, which has a great deal of sliding friction, on the other hand.

Essentially, the hindquarters of felines is adapted to be explosive, and it seems to fit hand in hand for the upper body. The hindquarters of bears, on the other hand seem to be better evolved for power and strength, similar to the forequarters.

[brobear]

Continued....
Bone Density Analysis****

There is a lot of evidence to suggest bears have denser bones othan felids, however since there isn't a source directly stating it, simply because it would be a random statement, we can use accounts to try to make the most accurate comparison we can.

California Grizzly., Tracy Irwin Storer, Lloyd P. Tevis; pg. 194-195-

"The grizzly is very tenacious of life, and he is seldom immediately killed by a single bullet. His thick, wiry hair, tough skin, heavy coats of fat when in good condition, and large bones serve well to protect his vital organs; but he often seems to preserve all his strength and activity for an hour or more after having been shot through the lungs and liver with large rifal-balls." (J.S. Hittel 1863 : 109.)

Near Livermore in 1854 one lived half an hour after a ball from a 5-inch Colt revolver had passed completely through his heart (N 27) . Another reportedly "turned and showed fight" after his skull was split with an axe "scattering his brains on the ground" (N 43).

In the somewhat lurid tale of "How Old Pinto Died" Allen Kelly (1903 : 171-191) wrote that the bear was finally killed by a 45-70-450 bullet entering the "butt" of the ear and passing through the brain. The previous evening one shot "had nearly destroyed a lung." In all there were eleven bullet holes, but only two or three bullets had lodged, "the others having passed through, making large, ragged, wounds and tearing the internal organs all to pieces." Of another bear, which had been fired at repeatedly by members of a party, Vachell (1901 : 251-252) stated that "when we skinned him, we found that he had been shot through the heart, through the lungs, through the head, and through the loins!"

Information on feline vitality (credits to Taipan, and source- )-

"Taylor (1959) describes an incident when a local commissioner in Mozambique decided to trap a lion for close-up photographs. The lion, trapped by its front paw, ultimately tore off its own foot in order to escape. Now debilitated, it became a notorious man-eater, even climbing stairways in attempts to get at its victims. One of the recent man-eaters in the vicinity of Queen Elizabeth National Park (Uganda) had been caught in a poacher's snare during the mid-1990s. The damaged condition of its forelimb is recorded in its skeleton that is still preserved near the Mweya Lodge (Gnoske, personal observation). In July 1991, one of us (JCKP) was a first hand observer of an analogous situation in the Ituri Forest (Democratic Republic of Congo). There was panic in the town of Epulu as a prime-age leopard suddenly began killing domestic dogs in town. It was imperative to capture this leopard before people became victims. The leopard was captured and destroyed. The classic symbol of this doomed predator was the loss of its left-front paw to a human snare. The animal had little recourse but to then turn to the town that had unsuspectingly maimed him in the first place."

"Our own observations in Tsavo document possible scenarios of impairment. Between 1998 and 2001, both of us observed mature lions with potentially debilitating injuries. These animals were located in fully protected areas adjacent to Voi, just within the southern boundary of Tsavo East N.P. In 1998, after killing a female buffalo, one lion was limping to the extent that KWS rangers considered its removal. A second lion suffered an injury to its right eye as well as to its forelimb. A third individual was filmed with blood coming from both ears. Two photographs by H. Schuetz taken in 2001 depict adult male lions, suffering from severe dental trauma (FIGURES 11,12), on fresh kills of elephant and buffalo respectively. In total, we documented 12 injured lions, 10 of which were males. Four males and one female had moderately to severely broken canine teeth. Six males exhibited head trauma, one male suffered from back trauma, and three males and one female exhibited injured forelimbs. Several of these individuals displayed a combination of injuries. Despite these injuries, there is no evidence that these animals left the park to become man-eaters or cattle rustlers; they continued to pursue wild prey."

"However, man-eating is not a guaranteed outcome of the serious trauma affecting the predatory behavior of large Pantherids, especially the lion. The Pipal Pani Tiger (Corbett, 1944) was gored and seriously wounded by a buffalo. It was later shot in the shoulder by a local hunter leaving him mildly lame. At this time it became a regular cattle killer. When it was finally killed, it was never known to have attacked humans. The Hardwar Tiger, whose body was said to be in 'perfect' condition" and measured 9'10" between the pegs, was a notorious cattle killer but never attacked humans. After being killed, the skull was prepared and the right maxillary canine was found growing in an oblique direction through the palate into the middle of the mouth (Colyer, 1951). The author concludes that the tiger must have suffered a serious injury to the deciduous canine in its youth."

[brobear]

Continued....
Crusoe's Island., John Ross Brownie; pg. 188-
I saw the bear relax in his efforts, roll over from the body of his of his prostrate foe, and drag himself feebly a few yards from the spot. His entrails had burst entirely through the wound in his belly, and now lay only in long strings over the ground. The next moment the bull was on his legs, erect and fierce as ever. Shaking the blood from his eyes, he looked around, and seeing the reeking mass before him, lowered his head for the final most desperate charge. In the death struggle that ensued both animals seemed animated by supernatural strength. The grizzly struck out wildly, but with destructive energy that the bull, upon drawing back his head, presented a horrible and ghastly spectacle from his mouth; his tongue, a mangled mass of shreds, hanging from his mouth, his eyes torn completely from their sockets, and his hole face stripped to the bone. On the other hand, the bear was ripped completely open, and writhing in his last agonies.

If anybody has anymore accounts they would like to post about feline vitality, please do so, and I will gladly do the same for the bears, which in this case certainly seem to have denser bones.

Conclusive Chapter****

I should say, after completing my analysis my opinion has changed, though I still say that bears are more evolved for strength than felines. However, it seems that both animals are to a certain degree designed for both speed and strength, although felines mostly for a single behavior, and bears for a few, others which require more strength than what a feline would need. If I had to say, I'd say a bear is adapted for about 68-79% strength and power, and felines about 49-57% power, and speed. My overall conclusion is based on the extra amounts of muscles bears have in their heavier forelimbs, better leverage for more amounts of muscle in their back, wider chest, and shoulder hump of muscle for brown bears.

[brobear]

( IMO ) When we compare Smilodon populator ( probably the heaviest and strongest cat ever ) to a brown bear at head-and-body length parity ( both full-grown males ), the saber-toothed cat and the brown bear might be near-equals in upper-body strength ( a close contest ). However, in over-all strength the brown bear probably has the advantage of being heavier and stronger than the saber-tooth.

[brobear]

www.livescience.com/6683-saber-toothed-cats-wrestled-prey-powerful-arms.html

Saber-toothed Cats Wrestled Prey with Powerful Arms.

Saber-toothed cats might be most famous for their oversized fangs, but scientists now find the feisty felines had another exceptional feature — powerful arms stronger than those of any cat alive today.

Commonly known as the "saber-toothed tiger," the extinct cat Smilodon fatalis roamed the Americas until roughly 10,000 years ago, preying on "megafauna" — large animals such as mammoths, bison, camels and mastodons. Their specialization on such giant creatures might have doomed these hunters when their Ice Age prey died off.

The most recognizable features of the saber-toothed cat — giant, dagger-like canines — were also perhaps its most puzzling. The fangs would have been excellent at inflicting deadly slashing bites to its prey's throat, but their size and shape would also have made them highly vulnerable to fracturing compared with modern cats. That led researchers to wonder how the fangs developed in the first place.

"Cats living today have canines that are round in cross-section, so they can withstand forces in all directions," said researcher Julie Meachen-Samuels, a paleontologist at the National Evolutionary Synthesis Center in Durham, N.C. "If the prey is struggling it doesn't matter which way it's pulling — their teeth are unlikely to break."

In contrast, the long canines of saber-toothed cats were oval in cross-section, or thinner side-to-side, making them relatively fragile. This suggested that saber-toothed cats must have killed prey differently from other cats. In fact, research published in 2007 suggested Smilodon had a wimpy bite.

That's where the powerful arms come in. These predators might have pinned victims down with their heavily muscled forelimbs to protect their teeth from fracturing as they bit struggling prey, Meachen-Samuels said.

In an arm-wrestling match of sorts, the researchers compared saber-tooth arms with those of other cats. To do so, they X-rayed the arm and leg bones of fossils recovered from the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles. They also analyzed the limb bones of 28 cat species living today — ranging in size from the 6-pound (2.7-kilogram) margay to the 600-pound (272-kg) tiger — as well as the extinct American lion, the largest cat with conical teeth that ever lived. These measurements helped the researchers estimate bone length, rigidity and strength for each species.

Species with longer limbs generally had stronger bones. However, while saber-tooth leg bones fell within the normal range, their arm bones were exceptionally thick for their length. Not only that, their arms also had thicker cortical bone — the dense outer layer that makes bones strong and stiff.

"When I looked at Smilodon, I knew they were thicker on the outside than other cats, but I was really shocked at how much thicker they were on the inside as well," Meachen-Samuels told Live Science.

The thicker cortical bone seen with the saber-toothed cats makes sense if the arms were under greater stress than normally expected for cats their size, Meachen-Samuels explained. Just as lifting weights improves bone density over time, so too may the repeated strain of grappling with prey have resulted in thicker and stronger arm bones in saber-toothed cats.

"As muscles pull on bones, bones respond by getting stronger," Meachen-Samuels said. "Because saber-toothed cats had thicker arm bones, we think they must have used their forelimbs more than other cats did."

The researchers would like to next look at other saber-toothed cats, as well as other saber-toothed predators that once existed. "There aren't a lot of arm bones to X-ray for other saber-toothed predators, but it'd be interesting to see if there were convergent processes with their arms as well," Meachen-Samuels said.

Meachen-Samuels and her colleague Blaire Van Valkenburgh detailed their findings online July 2 in journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011412

[brobear]

From reply #27 above: Commonly known as the "saber-toothed tiger," the extinct cat Smilodon fatalis roamed the Americas until roughly 10,000 years ago, preying on "megafauna" — large animals such as mammoths, bison, camels and mastodons.

*Bison ( not giant bison ) and camels ( not giant camels ) yes. Mammoths ( babies ) and mastodon ( babies ) only ( IMO )  

[brobear]

Nov 27, 2020 14:01:57 GMT -5 theundertaker45 said:

Kodiak Bear - Smilodon Populator (scaled to the max. shoulder heights which would be ~150cm for the bear and ~120cm for the Smilodon; Smilodon model is by Prehistoric Fauna)

Considering that Smilodon populator and the Kodiak brown bear are near HB length parity, with the saber-tooth possibly having a slight advantage, this is a fair comparison. Even in early Spring or early Summer, when the bear has the least amount of body fat, he would have a significant weight advantage over the saber-toothed cat due to his greater girth. 

[brobear]

*In my own words: In Smilodon, we find the combination of long, knife-like canines ( often referred to as fangs ) which ( like a knife ) are broad front-to-back but very thin from side-to-side and forelimbs ( arms ) which are heavy-boned and extremely muscled. These teeth are designed to slice through soft flesh. If used on a large heavy adversary during the struggle, the saber-toothed cat can easily break one or both of his saber teeth. Thus, Smilodon depends on his herculean strength to wrestle and subdue his prey. He must position his prey and hold his prey still long enough to use those long canines that he is most famous for. One quick slice - the "coup de grace" -and it's over.