Size

[tom]

Yes a photographer that has seen a lot of Bears in person up close vs viewing pictures on the internet. I don't think one has to be a biologists to know when you've seen an abnormally large bear. His weight estimates are just that estimates, however I would not doubt there are Bears at Katmai that are as large as those on Kodiak. Are there more Bears in that class on Kodiak.... could be?

[King Kodiak]

Mar 31, 2021 15:57:20 GMT -5 tom said:

Yes a photographer that has seen a lot of Bears in person up close vs viewing pictures on the internet. I don't think one has to be a biologists to know when you've seen an abnormally large bear. His weight estimates are just that estimates, however I would not doubt there are Bears at Katmai that are as large as those on Kodiak. Are there more Bears in that class on Kodiak.... could be?

That does not matter though, he is making a bold claim. Has he weighted a sample of bears from Katmai and a sample of bears from Kodiak and the bears from Katmai were larger on average? I dont think so, again, he is just a photographer, he does not weight bears. How many of the more huge elusive bears from Kodiak has he seen? Also, since when do you guys take a photographer's word over actual biologists that have scientifically weighted these bears and have said Kodiaks are larger? This is horseshit and you know it. Give me some actual data, not some  visual interpretation on some bears. No thanks, ill stick with biologists Troyer and Hensel.

[tom]

Mar 31, 2021 13:48:37 GMT -5 theundertaker45 said:

An excerpt of my conversation with Scott Stone (park guide/photographer in Katmai NP)

Stone: In my opinion from what I’ve seen I believe yes they are larger than Kodiaks; the largest Kodiak I’ve personally seen was on the south end of the island and I believe to be about 1600lbs.




Stone: Of the five biggest bears I’ve seen four were coastals at Katmai with of course Van bring the biggest; there's zero doubt to me he is pushing over 1800lbs during peak times.

I disagree Kodiak your making more of this than needed. He is simply stating his opinion. The first line in his first comment is "In my opinion" from what I've seen. There is no bold claim here whatsoever. 

He goes on to say he "zero doubt to me he is pushing over 1800 lbs" isn't necessarily a bold claim either. I don't have a problem with someone making that claim who has seen a LOT of bears. Could the weight be slightly exaggerated? sure but unless anyone (biologists included) actually weigh the bear an educated guess is fine by me. Do biologists weigh every Bear they study? an honest question. 


A large male pre hibernation who has packed on a LOT of extra weight to be that heavy IMO is not out of the realm. I don't know what the percentages are from spring weight to pre hibernation as far as weight gain but I'd venture to guess it's significant if he's been well fed.

[King Kodiak]

Van pushing 1800 lbs, i was not talking about this statement although it might be just a little exaggerated. 

Stone: In my opinion from what I’ve seen I believe yes they are larger than Kodiaks

This statement is my problem here. We know  from biologist Troyer that Kodiak island has  some factors allowing for these bears to be larger than Katmai bears. the only way Scott Stone can prove his opinion is by bringing us some weighted specimens.

[tom]

Again, one mans opinion. I asked this in my previous post but ammended it after you posted. For fear of playing the devils advocate I ask, Do Biologists weigh every bear they study?

[King Kodiak]

Mar 31, 2021 16:52:53 GMT -5 tom said:

Again, one mans opinion. I asked this in my previous post but ammended it after you posted. Do Biologists weigh every bear they study? an honest question.

I dont think they do, but the ones that have been weighted show Kodiaks are larger, both on average and largest specimens. There is no reason at all to think otherwise.


URSUS ARCTOS MIDDENDORFFI
The best of the land.

[tom]

So based on your answer you're in agreement that biologists estimate weights as well. They see many bears and can fairly accurately estimate a bears size and weight based on experience. Part of that experience is obviously viewing lots and lots of bears. All I'm saying is Mr. Stone is an experienced photographer who just so happens to specialize in photographing coastal Brown bears so it seems. I don't know how long he's been at it but it would seem for quite some time. He likely has even been with biologists during his photo sessions (who knows) or has shared his many photos of large bears with biologists, we simple do not know all of his qualifications for stating what he believes.

Just cut the guy a little slack for doing what he does to share with the rest of us. 

[King Kodiak]

So based on your answer you're in agreement that biologists estimate weights as well

I said biologists actually weight bears, not just estimate.

Just cut the guy a little slack for doing what he does to share with the rest of us. 

Sure Tom.

[brobear]

Scott Stone ( park guide/photographer in Katmai NP) has observed both the Kodiak bears and the Katmai bears. For him to say, "In my opinion from what I’ve seen I believe yes they are larger than Kodiaks", is telling me that, to say the least, right now in the 21st century, the size difference between the Kodiaks and the Katmai bears must be minimal.

[King Kodiak]

right now in the 21st century, the size difference between the Kodiaks and the Katmai bears must be minimal.

It was always minimal concerning the largest specimens, we have always known that. But as our good friend Warsaw would say "without data that means nothing"

[brobear]

Apr 1, 2021 5:44:35 GMT -5 King Kodiak said:

right now in the 21st century, the size difference between the Kodiaks and the Katmai bears must be minimal.

It was always minimal concerning the largest specimens, we have always known that. But as our good friend Warsaw would say "without data that means nothing"

Proof of nothing; I am aware. Also, I believe that the word "minimal" could be said for average-size as well as max-size.

[King Kodiak]

Since the "Kodiak vs Alaska Peninsula weight debate"  has resurfaced again, well lets take a look at the actual scientific data that we do have, and obviously, it goes without saying that all this data still stands until new data comes up.

First of, we have this chart, we have the Coastal Alaska Peninsula bear 9+ years at 389 kg (857 lbs). We also have the Kodiak bear 6+ years at 300 kg (661 lbs). Heaviest specimens for this chart are, kodiak 611 kg (1347 lbs), Coastal bear 442 kg (974 lbs)



So for the chart above, we can obviously use the Coastal bear weight (9+), but we cant use the Kodiak weight (6+). Which leads us to this:

"By the time they reach or exceed EIGHT TO NINE YEARS OF AGE, MALE KODIAK BEARS TEND TO BE MUCH LARGER THAN NEWLY MATURE 6 YEAR OLD MALES, POTENTIALLY TRIPLING THEIR AVERAGE WEIGHT WITHING THREE YEARS TIME AND CAN EXPECT TO AVERAGE BETWEEN 360 AND 545 KG (794 to 1202 LBS)




Lets not forget our historic scientific chart. The 8-9 year old kodiaks average 835 lbs. But if we take into consideration the bears listed to the right under "adult weight" we get an average weight of 1077 lbs.


CORY FORD, WELL KNOWN WRITER AND HUNTER, HE STATES THAT THE KODIAK BEAR IS THE LARGEST CARNIVEROUS ANIMAL ON EARTH, THAT ADULTS WEIGHT AROUND 1200 LBS, AND IN SOME CASES MUCH HEAVIER.

[brobear]

A point about brown bear size. We know that brown bear populations in barren locations, where food availability is poor, produces smaller bears. The more lush the environment, the bigger the bear. However, I would like to point out that genetics also play a role.
Should you take a young cub from Yellowstone, and feed him on as healthy a diet as possible - including vast amounts of protein, that grizzly will never reach the size of a big Kodiak bear.
                                                            

[OldGreenGrolar]

Reply 18. I am surprise the polar bear is able to slap the giraffe in the face. I think this only applies to large males.

[brobear]

May 2, 2021 4:38:39 GMT -5 OldGreenGrolar said:

Reply 18. I am surprise the polar bear is able to slap the giraffe in the face. I think this only applies to large males.

Of course, it would take a max-sized boar polar bear to slap a giraffe ( 18 to 20 feet tall ) in the face. 
 
*Back on topic: Brown Bear Size

[OldGreenGrolar]

May 4, 2021 9:21:59 GMT -5 brobear said:

May 2, 2021 4:38:39 GMT -5 OldGreenGrolar said:

Reply 18. I am surprise the polar bear is able to slap the giraffe in the face. I think this only applies to large males.

Of course, it would take a max-sized boar polar bear to slap a giraffe ( 18 to 20 feet tall ) in the face. 
 
*Back on topic: Brown Bear Size

Brown bears can potentially exceed polar bear size in captivity.

[OldGreenGrolar]

Brown bears in this area are often around 35% body fat in late summer and fall. For simplicity, the rest of the bear was considered to be the lean tissue, which is about the density of water. With the math complete, we now have a good idea of what the bears weighed on the day of the scans. The 2019 Fat Bear Week tournament was full of truly fat bears.

blog.explore.org/how-big-are-the-fat-bear-week-bears/

50% fat is for pregnant females.

[brobear]

About those outlaw grizzlies, the cattle and sheep killers of the American West.

Notorious Grizzly Bears by W.P. Hubbard - 1960 - Pelage and Character - Weight.

A safe estimate of the average weight of adult grizzlies in our western states would be about eight hundred and fifty pounds. This conclusion results from a careful check on grizzlies killed and weighed by numerous hunters, trappers, and old-time bear men. Nevertheless, there are exceptions. Several outlaw grizzlies investigated were known to have weighed over one thousand pounds.

( These outlaw grizzlies were hunted and killed before the Boone and Crockett Club established the idea of preserving bear skulls ). 
 
*When I had first read this several years ago, I considered this to be an exaggeration. But, that was then.
W.P. Hubbard was the leading expert on bears at that time. Consider that, after the mega-beast extinction at the end of the Pleistocene, the grizzlies of the N. American Great Plains became foragers and bison hunters. Then, during the 1600s, 1700s, and early 1800s, the grizzly was also hunting range cattle ( the ancestors of the Texas Longhorn ), mustang horses, and wild burros. 
These grizzlies were feeding like royalty on lots of red meat. Beginning in the mid-1800s, the bison and feral cattle started disappearing, and were replaced by domesticated livestock. This is when the grizzly, following his nature, became, in the eyes of mankind, an outlaw. We all know the "rest of the story."
 
W.P. Hubbard was probably 'right-on-the-money' when he stated that the grizzly of the prairie averaged roughly 850 pounds. In every book I have read concerning the historic grizzly ( those that touched on the subject ) stated that the grizzlies of the open prairie were bigger that those of the Rocky Mountains and rivaled only by those of the West Coast. 
It stands to reason, that a population of grizzlies with a very high percentage of red meat consumption would be very large bears.

[OldGreenGrolar]

I would like to see a Californian grizzly bear in real life. Their diet seems to be 85% carnivorous, that is only a little bit less than the polar bear.

[brobear]

May 20, 2021 6:00:21 GMT -5 OldGreenGrolar said:

I would like to see a Californian grizzly bear in real life. Their diet seems to be 85% carnivorous, that is only a little bit less than the polar bear.

On the coastline of the Pacific Ocean, the California grizzly could prey upon juvenile elephant seals and Stellar sea lions, as well as clams, crabs, and other food stuffs to forage for. Inland, the hunting was moderate. But, somehow, these bears found plenty of protein. Perhaps in salmon along the coastal region and trout inland.