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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:21:18 GMT -5
The grizzlies of the Old West who followed the gargantuan herds of bison were much larger on average than the Rocky Mountain grizzlies of Wyoming and Montana. 850 pounds is roughly the size of an Alaskan peninsula brown bear. So, I believe that W.P. Hubbard was over estimating. However, every book I have read about the historical grizzlies of the old West, which touched on this subject, stated that the grizzlies of the prairie were larger than those of the Rocky Mountains. I'm thinking likely about the size of the Ussuri brown bears but perhaps with some exceptionally large individuals. Remember, these bears fed heavily on bison, mustangs, and range cattle. In later years ( after the great extermination ) on livestock. This makes perfect sense and follows the logic of why Alaskan coastal Bears are larger than their inland cousins. Diet can play a huge part on how large a Bear will grow and you sprinkle in a little genetics and it's not magic. More protein and fat and wallah... big Bear. Before Grizzlies were slowly being exterminated in the late 19th and early 20th century there were simple more of them and more of them to grow large to a ripe old age. True wilderness habitat was abound everywhere and mankind hadn't put his footprint on everything yet so Bears flourished. Pure logic that even Mr. Spock would agree with.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:25:54 GMT -5
The largest living bison subspecies.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:29:15 GMT -5
The two American bison subspecies.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:34:22 GMT -5
I have read a fair number of books on the historic grizzly. Some pioneers and Indians supported the brown bear while it seems an equal number supported the bison. Therefore, I would assume that in this *Battle of the Titans, the results could go either way. 50/50. I still stand by this.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:36:15 GMT -5
The American bison is just the perfect balance of all living bovids in my opinion; it has a fair amount of aggression, a large head and neck, lethal horns and displays tremendous feats of agility/speed. The cape buffalo/European bison/gaur/wild yak (in my opinion) lack at least one of the following attributes, therfore the American bison (especially the Plains subspecies) is the "ultimate bull" for me. I agree 100% with this.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:39:54 GMT -5
In historical N. America, when the grizzlies of the Great Plains often followed bison herds, according to pioneers, fights were witnessed. Of course, those tales told cannot be authenticized as fact, but I feel certain that such fights did happen on occasion. Those grizzlies were larger than the Rocky Mountain grizzlies of Wyoming and Montana, but smaller than the coastal giants. If there was any truth to their tales, one of these great beasts was victorious as often as the other. Also, we have recent news of European brown bears killing full-grown bison. But, I can easily see your point. A bull bison is really big and really powerful. It's hard to imagine even a big boar Kodiak bear besting him. We must keep in mind, even though the bovine has weight and strength on his side, he remains planted to the earth on all fours while the bear is a grappler.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:44:15 GMT -5
In historical N. America, when the grizzlies of the Great Plains often followed bison herds, according to pioneers, fights were witnessed. Of course, those tales told cannot be authenticized as fact, but I feel certain that such fights did happen on occasion. Those grizzlies were larger than the Rocky Mountain grizzlies of Wyoming and Montana, but smaller than the coastal giants. If there was any truth to their tales, one of these great beasts was victorious as often as the other. Also, we have recent news of European brown bears killing full-grown bison. . But, I can easily see your point. A bull bison is really big and really powerful. It's hard to imagine even a big boar Kodiak bear besting him. That's exactly my point. I just feel like the bovine would take the dub in a hypothetical fight to death scenario where both the opponents are equally motivated to kill each other. Besides , I'm not a huge fan of these historical battles and eyewitnesses since there are too many variables which have to be considered as you've mentioned and I quite take them with a grain of salt. I can easily understand the points made by horribilis.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:46:48 GMT -5
That's exactly my point. I just feel like the bovine would take the dub in a hypothetical fight to death scenario where both the opponents are equally motivated to kill each other. Besides , I'm not a huge fan of these historical battles and eyewitnesses since there are too many variables which have to be considered as you've mentioned and I quite take them with a grain of salt. In the book "California Grizzly", the authors ( Tracy I. Storer, Lloyd P. Tevis ) describe the historic bear and bull fights. Often, in such a fight, the bear would grab the bull by his mouth or even by his tongue, and in this manner could control the big bovine. In a similar manner, the barren ground grizzly is known to overpower and kill the much larger musk ox. The bear has methods of which the bovines weight and strength serves him little purpose.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:51:46 GMT -5
About those outlaw grizzlies, the cattle and sheep killers of the American West. Notorious Grizzly Bears by W.P. Hubbard - 1960 - Pelage and Character - Weight. A safe estimate of the average weight of adult grizzlies in our western states would be about eight hundred and fifty pounds. This conclusion results from a careful check on grizzlies killed and weighed by numerous hunters, trappers, and old-time bear men. Nevertheless, there are exceptions. Several outlaw grizzlies investigated were known to have weighed over one thousand pounds. ( These outlaw grizzlies were hunted and killed before the Boone and Crockett Club established the idea of preserving bear skulls ). *When I had first read this several years ago, I considered this to be an exaggeration. But, that was then. W.P. Hubbard was the leading expert on bears at that time. Consider that, after the mega-beast extinction at the end of the Pleistocene, the grizzlies of the N. American Great Plains became foragers and bison hunters. Then, during the 1600s, 1700s, and early 1800s, the grizzly was also hunting range cattle ( the ancestors of the Texas Longhorn ), mustang horses, and wild burros. These grizzlies were feeding like royalty on lots of red meat. Beginning in the mid-1800s, the bison and feral cattle started disappearing, and were replaced by domesticated livestock. This is when the grizzly, following his nature, became, in the eyes of mankind, an outlaw. We all know the "rest of the story." W.P. Hubbard was probably 'right-on-the-money' when he stated that the grizzly of the prairie averaged roughly 850 pounds. In every book I have read concerning the historic grizzly ( those that touched on the subject ) stated that the grizzlies of the open prairie were bigger that those of the Rocky Mountains and rivaled only by those of the West Coast. It stands to reason, that a population of grizzlies with a very high percentage of red meat consumption would be very large bears.IMO, those big 800+ pound grizzlies fed heavily upon bison flesh considering that before the massive "European-American" migration west, there was an estimated 50-to-100 million bison on the Great Plains. Those big grizzlies probably fed mostly on found carcasses, usurping wolf kills, and preying upon bison calves and cows. But, regardless of whether or not there is any truth in the old tales from the frontiersmen of the time, I have no doubts that there was an occasional confrontation between a big bull bison and a big boar grizzly. Such battles were probably rare, as they would have been instigated by the bovine. IMO, such a fight could go either way. I do not consider this a one-sided fight. Neither do I doubt the size estimate made by bear expert W.P. Hubbard. The Ussuri brown bears of the R.F.E. sometimes reach this size and they are by far mostly vegetarian.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:55:10 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:57:37 GMT -5
1992 Daily Bear vs bison: Dramatic footage shows Yellowstone grizzly taking down a bison. January 4, 2023 1992daily.com/bear-vs-bison-dramatic-footage-shows-yellowstone-grizzly-taking-down-a-bison-hoang/ Bear vs bison: Dramatic footage shows Yellowstone grizzly taking down a bison Host to the largest concentration of big mammals in the conterminous United States Yellowstone National Park is one of the best places in North America to see large carnivores in predatory action. On the afternoon of May 31, visitors to the park – only recently reopened on a limited basis after COVID-19-related closure – saw predatory action that’s especially rare to witness: a grizzly bear killing a bison. Michael Daus managed to capture cellphone footage of the encounter, which took place along the Firehole River at a trailhead in Yellowstone’s Midway Geyser Basin. Initially charged by the young bison, the grizzly ends up grappling its victim from behind, tearing into the bovid’s back as it staggers along. The struggling pair totter across a bridge over the river, then end up in the flow itself. The grizzly ultimately dispatched its hefty quarry along the riverbank. Park staff later moved the carcass on account of its proximity to the parking lot and trail. According to Daus, the attack unfurled over about 17 minutes. It certainly made an impression. “To have it happen close by and relatively safe for the circumstances we were in,” he told the Billings Gazette, ‘that’s a treat.” Yellowstone’s grizzlies are among the most carnivorous of North America’s inland brown bears, which partly reflects this Rocky Mountain highland’s great abundance and diversity of large ungulates. Animal protein for the bears, however, also comes in the form of everything from pocket gophers and cutthroat trout to ants and army cutworm moths, which Greater Yellowstone grizzlies seek out on austere talus slopes above timberline in summer. The two most important big beasts for Yellowstone grizzlies, calories-wise, are elk and bison. These are commonly eaten as scavenged carcasses, an especially critical protein source in spring for lean “silvertips” (as grizzlies are sometimes called) freshly out of their winter dens. The 1990s reintroduction of grey wolves to Yellowstone has translated into a smorgasbord for grizzlies, too, given the infusion of wolf-killed carrion that resulted; grizzlies, especially big males, usually dominate wolves and enthusiastically run them off their kills. Yes, grizzlies hunt bison.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 4:59:05 GMT -5
The bison appears to be a young-adult cow. The grizzly chooses wisely. The bear remains in full control from the beginning. It takes him 17 minutes to kill the young bison.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 5:01:53 GMT -5
The best documented case of a bear killing a bison actually comes from YNP where an adult grizzly sow took the fight to a young adult bull bison; I'll attach the PDF below. Given the size difference between the two, this is an enormous predation feat. Apart from this, I am 100% convinced that a bear would completely manhandle and wipe out any bovid of equal size; hence most of them evolving into 1000kg brutes to be safe from predators. www.bearbiology.org/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_13/Wyman_13.pdfAnother great find.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 5:03:32 GMT -5
That was indeed an event to remember. On that occasion, a sow grizzly kills a young bull bison. Before either of these two events had taken place, I had been saying for years that (imo) a grizzly will sometimes hunt and kill a bison; especially in early Spring when the bears wake-up hungry. Park rangers, biologists, and others with bear savvy take it for granted when they see a bear feeding on a bison carcass that the bison either died from natural causes or was killed by wolves. I'm sure that this holds true for the vast majority, but not all. Remember also that we have a few cases recorded here (within this topic) of Eurasian brown bears killing adult bison. Adding my two cents...
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 5:05:48 GMT -5
Wild bison to roam Britain for first time in thousands of years www.whitewolfpack.com/2020/07/wild-bison-to-roam-britain-for-first.html?fbclid=IwAR2df5Il2Jg-bQVEJhR3JFvpkDIvCTrUk2pksoVhdtsDZP1zVdSBtMnZzJA About 10,000 years after the Steppe Bison went extinct, UK's most important wildlife species are now also racing toward extinction. Ancient Steppe bison once roamed the land which would later become England. Their presence significantly provided other animals and plants the healthy ecosystem they needed to thrive. Now, the UK is looking to the Steppe bison's closest relative to bring back the area's ancient woodlands -- the European bison. The $1.4 million "Wilder Blean" project, funded by the People's Postcode Lottery Dream fund, aims to release a small herd of European bison into the West Blean woods, near Canterbury in East Kent, during the spring of 2022. The bison will come from the Netherlands or Poland, where previous releases have proved successful, and the initial release will include one male and three females, according to the Guardian. Natural breeding is expected to increase the size of the herd. Describing European bison as "ecosystem engineers," the Kent Wildlife Trust, one of the conservation organizations leading the project, said the species can "change woodlands in a way that no other animal can." "They eat bark and create dust baths which each have benefits for many plants and animals," the trust added. "These are functions that have been missing from our UK woodlands for thousands of years and bringing them back can help restore an abundance of wildlife." The UK is one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world, according to the World Wildlife Fund. More than one in seven native species face extinction and more than half are in decline. "The Wilder Blean project will prove that a wilder, nature-based solution is the right one to tackling the climate and nature crisis we now face," Paul Hadaway, director of conservation at Kent Wildlife Trust said in a statement. "Using missing keystone species like bison to restore natural processes to habitats is the key to creating bio-abundance in our landscape." Once the bison are settled into their fenced area, the public will be able to visit and watch the animals. A dangerous gift to the wolves and bears of Europe.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 5:07:31 GMT -5
There was a time when grizzlies of the Great Plains followed the bison herds. The biggest skull of a grizzly recorded in the Boone and Crockett Club was found and is from one of those old bison hunters. About those outlaw grizzlies, the cattle and sheep killers of the American West. Notorious Grizzly Bears by W.P. Hubbard - 1960 - Pelage and Character - Weight. A safe estimate of the average weight of adult grizzlies in our western states would be about eight hundred and fifty pounds. This conclusion results from a careful check on grizzlies killed and weighed by numerous hunters, trappers, and old-time bear men. Nevertheless, there are exceptions. Several outlaw grizzlies investigated were known to have weighed over one thousand pounds. ( These outlaw grizzlies were hunted and killed before the Boone and Crockett Club established the idea of preserving bear skulls ). *When I had first read this several years ago, I considered this to be an exaggeration. But, that was then. W.P. Hubbard was the leading expert on bears at that time. Consider that, after the mega-beast extinction at the end of the Pleistocene, the grizzlies of the N. American Great Plains became foragers and bison hunters. Then, during the 1600s, 1700s, and early 1800s, the grizzly was also hunting range cattle ( the ancestors of the Texas Longhorn ), mustang horses, and wild burros. These grizzlies were feeding like royalty on lots of red meat. Beginning in the mid-1800s, the bison and feral cattle started disappearing, and were replaced by domesticated livestock. This is when the grizzly, following his nature, became, in the eyes of mankind, an outlaw. We all know the "rest of the story." W.P. Hubbard was probably 'right-on-the-money' when he stated that the grizzly of the prairie averaged roughly 850 pounds. In every book I have read concerning the historic grizzly ( those that touched on the subject ) stated that the grizzlies of the open prairie were bigger that those of the Rocky Mountains and rivaled only by those of the West Coast. It stands to reason, that a population of grizzlies with a very high percentage of red meat consumption would be very large bears. The Ussuri brown bear is the largest living inland brown bear living today. Only the salmon-eating coastal brown bears are bigger. However, back before the horrible slaughter of grizzly bears throughout North America down below the Canadian border, there were grizzly populations where the bears were bigger than their Russian brothers. A repeat but a good one...
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 5:10:26 GMT -5
What predator, if any, attacked and killed... a two-and-a-quarter ton bull bison? Bison of the Pleistocene.
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Post by brobear on Oct 23, 2023 5:13:04 GMT -5
Not sure if this has been posted, but I saw this: The park’s staff doesn’t see bears kill bison very often, Gunther said, but it probably happens more often than known because such kills aren’t usually so visible. Gunther said he once saw an adult cow bison killed by a big male grizzly. He’s also seen bison carcasses with bite marks on their spines. One time he saw a grizzly chase off wolves that were killing a bison. The bear finished the wolves’ work. “We had a collared bear that would occasionally kill adult bison,” he said. “So some bears get somewhat proficient at it.” redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7226874&u=https%3A//amp.idahostatesman.com/outdoors/article243870102.htmlThank you for this find Granolah, which promted me to start this new topic right here today on 10/23/2023.
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