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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 4, 2019 7:02:18 GMT -5
Does anyone care to write a hypothesis on califonian grizzly vs bull bison? Yes brobear will do it right now.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 4, 2019 7:18:56 GMT -5
Does anyone care to write a hypothesis on califonian grizzly vs bull bison? Yes brobear will do it right now. Well, bison were introduced in California in 1924, so they never really meet the California grizzly. The grizzlies did meet the Texas longhorns though. But if you want i can do a hypothesis on California grizzly vs bull bison later.
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Post by brobear on Mar 4, 2019 7:45:53 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_California#Even-toed_ungulates Order: Artiodactyla Family: Bovidae 2 species of bison, cattle, goats, and sheep occur in California. Barbary sheep, Ammotragus lervia (introduced, harvest) Bison, Bison bison (extirpated in the early 1800s;semi-wild animals on private ranches may occur in CA, introduced wild population on Santa Catalina Island) Bighorn sheep, Ovis canadensis (harvest) Sierra Nevada bighorn sheep, O. c. sierrae en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_Island_bison_herd The Catalina Island bison herd has existed for nearly a century. This herd of American Bison roam and were supposedly first imported to California's Catalina Island in 1924 for the silent film version of Zane Grey's Western tale, The Vanishing American. However, the 1925 version of "The Vanishing American" does not contain any bison and shows no terrain that resembles Catalina, according to Jim Watson, columnist for the Catalina Islander newspaper
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Post by brobear on Mar 4, 2019 7:47:18 GMT -5
Yes, the California grizzly was familiar with bison steaks.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 4, 2019 7:56:00 GMT -5
Yes, the California grizzly was familiar with bison steaks. I think before 1924, bisons were only present on private ranches in California, but not in the wild. They were introduced in the wild in 1924 on Catalina island. The grizzly was already extinct.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 4, 2019 7:59:39 GMT -5
TUESDAY, MAY 17, 2016 Bison, Our National Mammal, at Home on California’s Catalina Island Bison, which once freely roamed the American West, has risen to a new prominence since President Obama signed the National Bison Legacy Act into law last week on May 9. The legislation designates the American bison as the national mammal of the United States. Often confused with buffalo, according to Live Science magazine bison were called “bufello” by early American settlers due to some similarities between the American bison and the Asian and African buffalo species. Native to the Great Plains, American bison found their way to the isolated Santa Catalina Island—a 22-mile island off the coast of southern California—in 1924. californiahistoricalsociety.blogspot.com/2016/05/bison-our-national-mammal-at-home-on.html?m=1
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Post by brobear on Mar 4, 2019 8:19:33 GMT -5
2 species of bison - were living wild in California before the first Spaniard ever arrived. But, with the war against Indians, the arrival of domesticated cattle, and the California gold rush, the bison ( like the grizzly ) were exterminated. *Note: I carried this over to California grizzly, as to bison being a California native. As for grizzly vs bison, this can be found in the topic: Bull Fighter.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 4, 2019 12:41:30 GMT -5
So now we know that the California grizzly did not cross paths with the american bison as we know it. It did cross paths with Texas longhorns and spanish bulls. So based on all the accounts we have read on bear-bull fights, i can probably do a hypothesis on a California grizzly vs bison fight.
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Post by brobear on Mar 4, 2019 17:59:28 GMT -5
www.livescience.com/60241-bison-facts.html The American bison is the largest mammal in North America. It grows to 7 to 11.5 feet (2.1 meters to 3.5) long from head to rump, and its tail adds an extra 20 to 23.5 inches. They weigh 930 to 2,200 lbs. (422 to 998 kilograms). *Note: Bison vs grizzly is not a size-parity fight. A bull weighs from 1800 to 2200 pounds. Plus the fact that I have spent a lot of time explaining that weight-parity and size-parity are not the same thing. If we were to have a size-parity contest, we would need a grizzly measuring 11 feet long. We also know that nether crocodile nor walrus is size-parity. Quote: At higher weights these bovines will win for sure. Why? When the grizzlies of the great plains stalked bison, they were big grizzlies, about half-way between the size of coastal brown bears and Yellowstone grizzlies, but the bison were bigger. According to 19th century data, those bears ranged from 800 to 1200 pounds. Roughly half the weight of a bull bison. Yet, the grizzly defeated the bison in about half the witnessed accounts. Also, keep in mind the barren ground grizzly who fights and kills a musk ox triple his weight.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 4, 2019 18:11:52 GMT -5
A 1600 lb bull bison should be possible. The bison does not fight on hind legs, so the head to body lenght should not be an advantage. Weight plays a more important factor.
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Post by brobear on Mar 4, 2019 18:22:36 GMT -5
A 1600 lb bull bison should be possible. The bison does not fight on hind legs, so the head to body lenght should not be an advantage. Weight plays a more important factor. Recorded history, there were eye-witnessed battles between grizzly and bull bison. Those bison ranged from 1800 pounds to over a full-ton. Yet, the bison killed the bear in only 50% of such conflicts. About head-and-body length. Nothing to do with advantage. At equal head-and-body length, this would then be a size-parity fight. But, the natural size-difference is too much for this.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 4, 2019 18:34:06 GMT -5
I had my mind somewhere else, you are right about walrus and crocs, not weight parity, i dont know what i was thinking.
Spanish fighting bulls weight 1000 to 1550 lbs max weight. That was a nice weight parity match up, bear mostly won. American bison weights alot more than a grizzly at average and also max weights, and the grizzlies still won 50% of the time. So that there shows you the capabilities of the grizzly in a fight.
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Post by brobear on Mar 4, 2019 18:50:45 GMT -5
myanimals.com/animals/the-story-of-the-spanish-fighting-bull/ Weight. It must be between 300 and 500 kilograms ( 660 to 1100 pounds ). Height. Approximately 165 centimeters to 190 in length ( 65 to 75 inches ) or 5 feet 5 inches to 6 feet 3 inches high at the shoulders. Horns. Hair, skin, and layers. Legs, head and neck. *Note: I thought that maybe the Spanish fighting bull would be near size-parity; but no. Bulls are bigger than bears.
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Post by brobear on Mar 8, 2019 4:01:51 GMT -5
About Grizzly vs Bison. According to Doug Peacock, who is ( IMO ) the world's leading expert on U.a. horribilis, the reason we see so little predation among grizzlies today is, the predatary bears have been culled from the "herd". A grizzly who hunts and kills often tends to be a more aggressive and dangerous bear. This culling, not as a methodical plan, but simply from killing bears considered threatening, has led to this. Compared to the grizzly of the "Old West", today's bears are relatively tame. Fights between grizzlies and bison bulls as well as the feral range cattle bulls ( Texas Longhorn ) were never common-place, but did happen. As I have mentioned numerous times, for a grizzly to fight a bull bison, it will be the bison who chooses to fight. Because of this, the fight will always be head-to-head. A big boar grizzly stands no better than a 50% chance of surviving and possibly killing the bull bison.
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Post by brobear on Mar 8, 2019 12:34:43 GMT -5
Rishi says: Buffalos are more resilient than gaurs. Webster - resilient: a : capable of withstanding shock without permanent deformation or rupture
b : tending to recover from or adjust easily to misfortune or change
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 8, 2019 14:08:34 GMT -5
GAUR-BISON-BUFFALO COMPARISSON
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Post by brobear on Apr 26, 2019 4:00:39 GMT -5
GAUR-BISON-BUFFALO COMPARISSON The size difference is not profound. The strength difference perhaps less. A large ( I will say 800+ pounds ) mature male grizzly, according to comparing all I have read concerning the historical grizzly, stands a 50-50 chance in a face-to-face confrontation with a bull bison. I see no logical reason why he would not stand as good a chance against an African buffalo, a water buffalo, a yak, or a gaur. We know that against any domestic breed, the grizzly wins nearly every fight; I will say 90%.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 26, 2019 5:25:09 GMT -5
Yes i agree on the 50%. In terms of aggressiveness, Gaur and bison are usually Timid and shy, but they can turn very aggressive real fast, charging and killing animals. So basically they are the same in behavior. Check this out from wiki, bison can best any foe except for wolves and brown bears.
Bison temperament is often unpredictable. They usually appear peaceful, unconcerned, even lazy, yet they may attack anything, often without warning or apparent reason. They can move at speeds up to 35 mph (56 km/h) and cover long distances at a lumbering gallop.[48]
Their most obvious weapons are the horns borne by both males and females, but their massive heads can be used as battering rams, effectively using the momentum produced by what is a typical weight of 2,000 pounds (900 kg) (can be up to 2700 lbs) moving at 30 mph (50 km/h). The hind legs can also be used to kill or maim with devastating effect. In the words of early naturalists, they were dangerous, savage animals that feared no other animal and in prime condition could best any foe[48] (except for wolves and brown bears[8][49]).
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison
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Post by brobear on Apr 26, 2019 6:08:11 GMT -5
If you look closely at the comparison picture, the original author of this was also doing a neck comparison of the three wild bovines. The bison appears to be the most robust in terms of skull and neck although the thick woolly coat may be distorting the truth.
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Post by tom on Apr 26, 2019 9:17:41 GMT -5
In your opinion of all of the wild bovine, which is the most dangerous and which would pose the most threat to a 800+ Grizzly? Lets take this as a single individual and not as a herd.
I will give my opinion. I don't know as much about the Gaur or the water buffalo from Asia or Australia. To me the African Cape buffalo has the meanest disposition although on average he is a bit smaller than the American Bison, his temperament has been a development from hundreds of years of dealing with Lions. They don't call the Cape Buffalo the most dangerous game in Africa for nothing. For this reason I pick him as the biggest threat to a Grizzly of all the wild bovine.
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