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Post by brobear on Jan 13, 2023 4:58:36 GMT -5
1- W.J. Jankowski report (1943) remains unconfirmed by biologists. The hunter Jankowski found the tiger feeding on an old bear carcass. Not even the species of the bear was confirmed. Jankowski had no way of knowing the cause of the bear's death. *Note: The Jankowski tiger did not kill a full-grown male brown bear. 2- Batalov event (2017) remains unconfirmed by biologists. This is really ridiculous. This big brown bear disappears from his usual domain, which is not unusual for a male brown bear, and the tiger fans call this evidence that this tiger killed the bear. There was no dead bear; there was no kill site. There was nothing. The bear likely moved on due to the human hunters with rifles who had just recently moved into the area. Or perhaps, as is the habit of satellite bears, Chlamid was ready to seek other food resources. *Note: Ochkarik did not kill Chlamid. 3- Khabarovsk Territory event (2022) remains unconfirmed by biologists. The huge male brown bear turns out to be a three-year-old adolescent and maybe the tiger killed him. Small brown bears of this age group are the tiger's most common brown bear prey choice. *Note: Odyr killed an adolescent male brown bear. _________________________________________________________________________________ *Edit and add; back well over a decade ago, when it was first posted on AVA, about Dale/Misha killing a large bear, the tiger fanboys were all celebrating that Dale/Misha had fought and killed a huge male brown bear double his own weight. That story lasted for maybe a week or two before the word got out that the tiger has killed a brown she-bear who weighed 440 pounds; almost as heavy as the tiger. But then, in more recent years, we learn that there were several estimates made of the she-bear. Dale had recently been weighed at 445 pounds. The she-bear weighed somewhere between 330 and 440 pounds. Bottom line; there was nothing unusual about that incident. Dale had ambushed and killed a brown she-bear smaller than himself. As of this date of 1/11/2023, there remains no confirmed event of a tiger ever killing a mature adult male brown bear.  ________________________________________________________________________________________________ We all know that a lion never attacks a bull elephant, a bull rhinoceros, or a bull hippopotamus. We all know that a tiger never attacks a bull rhinoceros or a bull elephant. I believe that the same holds true between the tiger and the full-grown boar brown bear. |
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 11:11:57 GMT -5
Aside from the historical 12 tigers killed and eaten by brown bears before 1973, another 7 Amur tigers were killed by bears in the Primorski Krai and Khabarovski Krai in the period from 1985 to 1996. So this would add to a total of 19 Amur tigers killed by brown bears in the wild. Of course, the number of bears killed by tigers is much higher due to the fact that tigers hunt bears for food. Yes, the bear is at the very bottom of the tigers' menu and a tiger will only hunt bears as a last resort. When a tiger goes bear hunting, he is seeking both moon bears and adolescent brown bears between the ages of three and four. These bears are basically still cubs, on their own from mama bear (life is hard in the wild) but still not yet sexually mature. If the tiger finds instead an adult brown she-bear, which is within the same weight range as an adolescent bear, he will ambush her. This most often goes well for the tiger and he makes a quick clean kill. But, ever so often, the she-bear is too strong to kill easily with a single bite to the back of her neck, at the base of the skull. In this case, the tiger might fight with the wounded she-bear or simply walk way. Most often, when the tiger fights, he manages to kill the she-bear. But, not always. When the tiger finds himself losing, he can usually manage to pull away and retreat. But on rare occasion the she-bear kills the tiger. The tiger nearly always has a good 100 pound weight advantage over the bears he kills. When he doesn't, in such ceases, the tiger likely underestimated the size of the bear. This is when the tiger has a hard time killing the she-bear. A tiger will not ambush a full-grown male brown bear. Neither is he likely to stand his ground and defend a carcass from an adult male brown bear. Why would he choose to fight a bear face-to-face that he fears even to ambush? I have stated numerous times in the past, that a desperate tiger, one that fears that he might face starvation, might decide to stand his ground and defend his kill. But, this is theory. If he were feeling strong hunger pains while hunting, and feared starvation, would he ambush a full-grown male brown bear? Would a desperately hungry lion or tiger ambush a bull rhinoceros? The two scenarios are very similar. |
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 15:07:32 GMT -5
How do I know that tigers do not hunt full-grown male brown bears? Let me count the ways.
1- Tigers stalk and ambush both the sloth bear and the moon bear. This is common knowledge. Tigers hunt adolescent brown bears and sometimes adult female brown bears. This is common knowledge. If full-grown male brown bears were on the tigers' menu, this too would be common knowledge.
2- There is more meat on the carcass of a full-grown male brown bear than on the carcass of any lesser bear or even a male wild boar. If tigers were capable of ambushing and killing them, why would the adult male brown bear not be the tigers' first choice in prey animals? And if they were on the tigers' menu, this would be common knowledge.
3- When tigers hunt red deer, buffalo, or gaur, according to knowledgeable tiger fans, the tiger nearly always chooses a large adult. Even the massive bull gaur, the largest bovine alive on earth (again, according to knowledgeable tiger fans) is ambushed and killed by tigers. This is common knowledge. If full-grown male brown bears were chosen as potential prey by tigers, this too would be common knowledge.
4- Tigers do not hunt adult bull rhinoceros. This is common knowledge. I find the tales of tigers ambushing and killing adult rhino cows extremely questionable. The reason adult rhino bulls are never ambushed; the tiger knows his limitations: (full-grown elephants, bull rhinoceros, and adult boar brown bears).
5- If the adult male tiger Matkasur weighting 200-220 kg from the famous video didn't succeed to overwhelm a smallish female sloth bear weighting only 90-100 kg (that's the average mass of the female) and actually lost the battle how come a tiger can be stronger than adult male Ussuri brown bear with average weight for a 10+ years old at 657 pounds... ?. That's unthinkable.
6- If a tiger, whether in hunting or defending a carcass, had ever killed an adult male brown bear, wouldn't we have had at least one confirmed account of this from over the past 100 years?
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My conclusion: Tiger fans of every description who defend the tiger in tiger vs bear debates and who insist that a tiger will sometimes kill a full-grown male brown bear are simply biased for their favorite animal and are willing to overlook data from zoology reports, history, common sense, and the truth. They are all in complete denial. No question about it. The sad part is, these people spread false and misleading information throughout the internet. They choose to do this rather than to man-up to the truth.
Sorry tiger fans. Sometimes the truth hurts and losing can be painful.
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:09:16 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:16:07 GMT -5
Quote from PIKUNOV: "Although one wouldn't fancy the chances of a male tiger in a fight with a 'large' male brown bear, young adult male tigers in particular apparently are not afraid to fight them."
*As I've said numerous times, young adult tigers, the equivalent to teenage boys, are prone to making foolish decisions.
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:18:35 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:22:02 GMT -5
WELL KNOWN BIOLOGIST LINDA KERLEY SAID TIGERS HUNT "UP TO THE LARGEST AND HEALTHIEST ADULT FEMALE BROWN BEARS" Credits to King Kodiak:  |
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:26:46 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:30:08 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:32:49 GMT -5
Don't forget about N. A. Baikov. Post Nomber #87 30 November 2008 22:18:15 forum.zoologist.ru/viewtopic.php?id=589&p=4 In his book, Baikov stated general rule about bears: "Кроме человека, врагов у медведей почти нет. Только молодые экземпляры подвергаются нападению тигра; кроме того, сильно досаждают им некоторые виды насекомых и внутриполостных червей." "Тигр не решается нападать на бурого медведя, зная его огромную силу и злобность." Here's the translation. "Apart from humans, bears have almost no enemies. Only young specimens are attacked by a tiger; in addition, they are greatly annoyed by some species of insects and endocavitary worms." "The tiger hesitates to attack the brown bear, knowing its enormous strength and viciousness." credits to King Kodiak:  |
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:39:28 GMT -5
A Chinese and a Russian brown bear fight at the state border. Male bears always fight for territory. It is unclear who won that fight as the recording ends halfway during the attack. Picture: Amur Tiger Centre There is no sound on the video filmed on 11 May in Jewish Autonomous region, in eastern Siberia, but the brief moment of the attack caught on trail camera suggests that it must have been one rowdy fight. The rivals came one from the Russian side, the other from the Chinese side, to a path liked by endangered Amur tigers. It was a team from the Russian Amur Tiger Centre that set the trail camera to follow the life of the animals that were rescued by them, and reintroduced back to the wild. (credits to oldgreengrolar)    |
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:41:55 GMT -5
Lazovka the rescued Amur tiger is seen crossing from China to Russia close to the site where the two bears fought. Pictures: Amur Tiger Centre. ‘Amur tigers have always walked here in peace and quiet, yet the bears broke everything as soon as they came! 'They also broke photo trails set along other parts of the path - and they didn’t even notice barbed wire!’ the centre’s team said. Male bears always fight for territory. It is unclear who won that fight as the recording ends halfway during the attack. Jewish Autonomous region is home to several reintroduced Amur tigers, rescued by the team of the Amur Tiger Centre. The centre was set up outside Vladivostok to help big cats like endangered Amur leopards and Amur tigers, the world’s biggest cats. The rivals came one from the Russian side, the other from the Chinese side, to a path liked by endangered Amur tigers. Video: Amur Tiger Centre oldgreengrolar  |
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:46:55 GMT -5
King Kodiak: This article seems to confirm the starting post.
That is a great point yes. The OP, which is from Batalov, states this:
Tigers try not to have any conflicts with such bears, and prefer to simply avoid them. They compromise, obviously knowing from experience that after a while the bears will calm down and scatter themselves around the area, and then they will again be able to walk along their routes without worrying, updating the visual and fragrant marks on their marking objects so as to be able to communicate with their kind.
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:48:23 GMT -5
ohot-prostory.ru/index.php?id=18 Credited to Warsaw: "— Но ведь здесь и тигр водится, — сказал я. — Пострашней медведя! Это тигр-то? — оживился Данила. — Тигр берет проворством, а медведь силой. Старый медведь тигра не боится, а тигр обходит медведя, не желает с ним встречаться. Один наш знаменитый охотник, теперь уже покойный, видел, как медведь дрался с тигром. Откудова, говорит, у медведя проворство взялось! По его словам, он на этом месте нашел потом остатки разодранного тигра. Некоторые старые медведи-стервятники ходят по тигровым следам и питаются ихней добычей, значит, они тигра не боятся. "In short, the bear is the real master if our forest. He walks through the forest like a "goblin" - hoots and scares other animals. “But there’s a tiger here too,” I said. - More terrible than a bear! Is it a tiger? - Danila perked up. - A tiger always wins with his nimbleness, and a bear with his strength. An old bear isn't afraid of a tiger, but the tiger evades the bear, not wishing to meet him."
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:50:25 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:53:54 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 22:56:52 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 23, 2023 0:02:55 GMT -5
Matkasur, a big male tiger once lost a fight against a female sloth bear less than half his own weight. In defense of her cubs, the bear stood her ground and defended herself until fatigue overtook the tiger and he walked away totally exhausted. This fight lasted for 15 minutes. Usually, when a sloth bear stands his ground, he (or she) can successfully survive a face-off against a tiger. Just recently, a three-year-old adolescent (presumably male) Ussuri brown bear fought against an adult male Amur tiger named Odyr, for a prolonged period of time, before the tiger finally managed to kill the bear. What chance would this tiger have against a full-grown male Ussuri brown bear weighing anywhere from 500 to 800 pounds? *Note: an adolescent male brown bear from the age of three thru to the age of about 4.5 when he reaches sexual maturity, is roughly the size of an adult she-bear. Of course, the adolescent male lacks the strength of the adult female of equal size. ____________________________________________________________________________ *Note: tiger fanboys and fake professors continue to claim that tigers stalk and kill healthy full-grown male tigers, even though they have no evidence. |
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 23, 2023 3:05:14 GMT -5
A thought of mine; the adolescent brown bear was killed in late November which would normally mean he should have already started his hibernation process. At the age of 3 years young male brown bears usually get evicted by their mothers and have to look for their own; they either succeed, build experience and get to be a fully grown and strong boar or they die before that stage. In this case the most likely outcome was the tiger ambushing a young and inexperienced bear who was just learning how to survive on his own. In my eyes this task might have been easier for the tiger than when facing a sloth bear face-to-face. Yes, an adolescent Ussuri brown bear is larger than a typical Indian sloth bear but he lacks awareness, courage, experience and a lot of other things. An ambush on such an individual would definitely be easier than facing-off against an experienced sloth bear mother who probably is used to driving off tigers and other predators.
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Post by brobear on Jan 23, 2023 7:37:30 GMT -5
A thought of mine; the adolescent brown bear was killed in late November which would normally mean he should have already started his hibernation process. At the age of 3 years young male brown bears usually get evicted by their mothers and have to look for their own; they either succeed, build experience and get to be a fully grown and strong boar or they die before that stage. In this case the most likely outcome was the tiger ambushing a young and inexperienced bear who was just learning how to survive on his own. In my eyes this task might have been easier for the tiger than when facing a sloth bear face-to-face. Yes, an adolescent Ussuri brown bear is larger than a typical Indian sloth bear but he lacks awareness, courage, experience and a lot of other things. An ambush on such an individual would definitely be easier than facing-off against an experienced sloth bear mother who probably is used to driving off tigers and other predators. It seems that everyone insists that there was a long drawn-out struggle between the adult male Amur tiger and this adolescent (presumably male) brown bear. I am still not convinced that those who witnessed the scene and made the report were experts at reading tracks in the snow. They certainly didn't know how to gather valuable information on the bear carcass. No measurements of the skull and teeth or, better yet, "bring us his head." More likely scenario, the tiger ambushed the young bear and made a quick kill. The area could have been roughed up from the tiger chasing off scavengers. Even if the bear managed to attempt to defend himself face-to-face, as much as I admire those big brown bears, I find it difficult to imagine the tiger having such a difficult time in killing little Misha. |
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