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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 22, 2020 18:38:20 GMT -5
Question: consider a brown bear and a sloth bear, both males, measuring six feet from nose to rump each. The brown bear is heavier. Is it possible that the sloth bear might have equal strength, regardless of less bulk? No, that can never happen. Just with that huge shoulder hump you know the brown bear has a much stronger upper body.
Even at same weight, which the sloth bear would have more robust limbs, it would still be lacking that upper body strength.
At same head and body length, the brown bear will most likely be a subadult male, but i still think it would be stronger than an adult male sloth bear.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 22, 2020 21:20:43 GMT -5
The Himalayan brown bear probably overlaps in weight with the sloth bear. I agree with the post above.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 4, 2021 6:15:07 GMT -5
The square root cube law should always be included.
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 5, 2022 11:02:44 GMT -5
I think I'll post a small database here concerning interior grizzlies and coastal grizzlies; the numbers were taken from Blanchard's and Glenn's studies and should serve as a "proportional index" for measurements in relation to weight, I'll also list the ratios next to them.
Interior Grizzly Bear (Yellowstone; by Blanchard; specimens ranged from 6-22y of age; n=22)
Data Body Weight: 203kg Chest Girth: 136cm Neck Circumference: 81cm Total Body Length (over the curves): 195cm
Ratios Body Weight/Chest Girth³: 80.7 Body Weight/Neck Circumference³: 382 Body Weight/Total Body Length (over the curves)³: 27.4
Alaska Peninsula Brown Bear (by Glenn; specimens used were found under the age class "10.5y+"; n=5)
Data Body Weight: 389kg Chest Girth: 160cm Neck Circumference: 99cm Total Body Length (over the curves): 254cm
Ratios Body Weight/Chest Girth³: 95 Body Weight/Neck Circumference³: 400.9 Body Weight/Total Body Length (over the curves)³: 23.7
What does this mean? In terms of chest girth/neck circumference a lower number would mean a proportionally more massive animal and in terms of total body length a higher number would mean a proportionally more massive animal. The sample size for the coastal grizzlies is pretty small but they were all in their prime, the interior grizzlies ranged from young adults to veterans. And it surprises me a lot that the interior grizzlies outscore their coastal cousins in every area by quite a bit; they always looked brawnier to me on pictures but I didn't know that the difference is actually not slight but moderate.
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Post by brobear on May 5, 2022 12:30:47 GMT -5
Probably one of those few comparisons I am very proud of; a revised version and in much better quality than before, enjoy it! Coastal Grizzly Bear (left) - Inland Grizzly Bear (right)
It appears as though the coastal brown bears are 'evolving' towards a short-faced bear-like build ( proportionally longer legs ) while the inland brown bears are retaining their more 'raccoon-wolverine' look. Or, am I the only one seeing this?
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 12, 2022 13:47:21 GMT -5
Interior Grizzly Bear Boar (n=22)
203kg and 167cm HBL (straight line); 203/1.67³ -> 43.59
Interior Grizzly Bear Sow (n=29)
132kg and 150cm HBL (straight line); 132/1.5³ -> 39.11
Foxe Basin Polar Bear Boar (n=?)
579kg and 237cm HBL (straight line); 579/2.37³ -> 43.50
Foxe Basin Polar Bear Sow (n=?)
255kg and 198cm HBL (straight line); 255/1.98³ -> 32.85
Svalbard Polar Bear Boar (n=?)
389kg and 225cm HBL (straight line); 389/2.25³ -> 34.15
Svalbard Polar Bear Sow (n=?)
185kg and 194cm HBL (straight line); 185/1.94³ -> 25.34
Per this data it appears to me that the male polar bears from Foxe Basin can compete with the interior grizzly bear in terms of proportional bulk which I find very impressive.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 12, 2022 16:53:58 GMT -5
/\ I now understand why Stan looks bulkier than some male polar bears. These male polar bears from Foxe Basin seem bulkier than other male polar bears (and have a more prominent shoulder hump).
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 13, 2022 6:44:45 GMT -5
Continuing Reply #25...
Ussuri Brown Bear Boar (n=8)
258kg and 212cm HBL (over the curves) -> 258/2.12³ = 27.08
Ussuri Brown Bear Sow (n=4)
164kg and 181cm HBL (over the curves) -> 164/1.81³ = 27.66
Interior Grizzly Bear Boar (n=23)
207kg and 197cm HBL (over the curves) -> 207/1.97³ = 27.08
Interior Grizzly Bear Sow (n=29)
132kg and 178cm HBL (over the curves) -> 132/1.78³ = 23.41
Very interesting results; the sample size for Ussuri brown bears is much lower than for the North American Yellowstone grizzlies but they seem to be equal in terms of proportional bulk with Ussuri brown bear sows being exceptionally bulky (but again, only 4 specimens in the sample in contrast to over 20 for interior grizzlies). Sexual dimorphism related to size is almost equal in the two; I've noticed that male brown bears are roughly 55-65% larger than female brown bears taking all populations into account. In comparison, male polar bears are about 110-130% larger than female polar bears on average.
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horribilis
Parictis
“You have no idea how powerful the truth can be.” - Oliver Queen
Posts: 47
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Post by horribilis on May 13, 2022 8:18:34 GMT -5
That's some good stuff , taker . Btw wanna ask , do you have the source mentioning the body dimensions of Foxe Basin specimens ? If so , can you share it? It'd be much appreciated.
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 13, 2022 10:55:23 GMT -5
I'll get back to you; I had saved it on my old laptop that crashed last year.
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horribilis
Parictis
“You have no idea how powerful the truth can be.” - Oliver Queen
Posts: 47
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Post by horribilis on May 13, 2022 23:14:03 GMT -5
No worries . Take your time
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 25, 2022 11:36:42 GMT -5
tj981118Welcome to the Domain first of all; that is no specific equation, I just took the average weight of each bear population and divided it through the HBL measured in a straight line³.
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Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2022 4:07:07 GMT -5
All bear species are strong animals. An American black bear has enormous strength. But, at equal HB length, a brown bear is stronger.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 11, 2022 5:26:05 GMT -5
continuing Reply #25 I've estimated that an average male coastal grizzly (age group 5.5y+) probably lingers around the 205cm HBL mark (straight line) at a body weight of 357kg (summer weight). If we take a look at reply #25, we will see that this is a similar size to Svalbard polar bears of the same age. However, the Svalbard polar bears would definitely have a higher amount of body fat (24% vs 13-15%) and therefore the fat-free mass of both might be even closer, almost the same. Now take a look at their lengths, 205cm for the brown bear and 225cm for the polar bear, a 20cm difference, quite significant to say the least. Also worth mentioning is that the head of the brown bear longer and overall bigger than the head of the polar bear and makes up a greater percentage of the HBL. So the visual impressions seem to be on point, a large brown bear is a bulkier and very likely also stronger animal than a polar bear of equal weight (there should be no extreme difference though, those are the slight morphological adaptions towards the environment, polar bears need to retain a very dynamic and more athletic shape in order to chase after swift seals in water). However, I am still of the opinion that the largest polar bears on earth are the strongest bears to roam our planet due to their enormous size and the weight advantage they have over Alaskan/Kodiak bears. In Hudson bay for example, over 90 male polar bears averaged a weight of 489kg (age group 5y+), this is gigantic considering young adults are included and the really big boys are very often too big to be weighed. Two pictures that pinpoint it to close the comment:
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 11, 2022 8:17:26 GMT -5
The polar bear picture in Reply 22 does not look like a large male.It looks more like the drawing of a female.
The male polar bear in Undertaker’s post above mine has a shoulder hump. Might be a large male. Off topic: my fictional male blue ice bear (strongest land animal in my fictional stories only) is ten to twenty times heavier than that male polar bear.
The picture of that brown bear looks more like a Kodiak bear due to its broad skull. Peninsula Alaskan brown bears are more carnivorous than Kodiak bears and have narrower heads than the letter.
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Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2022 8:35:47 GMT -5
Quote from 'Taker: "However, I am still of the opinion that the largest polar bears on earth are the strongest bears to roam our planet due to their enormous size and the weight advantage they have over Alaskan/Kodiak bears." *I agree. Due to their massive size, polar bears are the strongest bears on the planet. We can see this if we compare the biggest polar bears to Kodiak bears or if we compare the average polar bear to the average brown bear including all subspecies. I will point out though, that at either weight parity or at size parity (equal HB length), in this contest the brown bear stands at the top. Nevertheless, reality is reality and size matters. Polar bears are the biggest and strongest of living bears.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 11, 2022 13:58:47 GMT -5
I will point out, I haven't seen any data as far as HBL and weight correlation is concerned for all other bear species; American black bear, Asian black bear, giant panda, sloth bear, spectacled bear, sun bear. Maybe I can take matters in my own hands in a few years and complete the database.
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Post by brobear on Nov 12, 2022 4:11:00 GMT -5
I will point out, I haven't seen any data as far as HBL and weight correlation is concerned for all other bear species; American black bear, Asian black bear, giant panda, sloth bear, spectacled bear, sun bear. Maybe I can take matters in my own hands in a few years and complete the database. That would be awesome 'Taker.
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